I was just stating my opinion and defending it. If something that actually had merit came along I would consider it, I’m the furthest thing from close minded.
This is my point… they need to fix this… has always been my point.
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Lol Eranog ring is BiS if your stats are correct elsewhere, if you don’t need the vers or the crit of course it will sim lower. The proc still does 1k DPS and a 450 isn’t going to beat that with 200 extra secondaries.
If you think Ret is in a good position for raid as far as DPS goes, you are delusional. It’s hovering near the bottom and with buffs to classes tomorrow it’s only going to get worse. I won’t be surprised if Ret is the worst DPS next tier, it’s scaling is BAD BAD and our tier set has so much power in it that unless the next one is insane, we are screwed.
like with onyx ring, eggnog ring does damage regardless on how you play. if you play like a goober than ya sure that 1k extra dps will do “something” but if you play your spec correctly then those extra secondaries will 100% do more for you. like i stated before a 447 crafted ring with any stats that sim higher for you can and will sim higher than a 421 socketed eggnog ring (nerfed 25% btw)
i hear this same this spouted everytime a spec thats not ret gets buffed. the fact that logs and other data sources shows thats far from the truth, the less im inclined to take such a doomer statement seriously. again i wont say no to a ret buff, but pointlessly dooming about untrue statements and trying to blame “verse scaling” when rets strongest stat is haste isnt helping anyone
if you look at boss damage only in all percentiles (a meme i know) you’d see ret smacked in the middle of the pack. i only bring this up because we have some devs say they use all percentiles along with their own data metric for tuning.
even if you put 95 percentile boss damage only youd see ret isnt far from the middle ground. factoring that alot of specs that are paired with auggie is having auggie damage boosts incorrectly being refered as their own data. so ret is probably even higher than it currently is. now with auggie slightly nerfed youd see a reduction of these specs performances as hooks and other factors are being fixed in real time
finally based on sims and theory crafting the buffed specs still wont over take ret in the meters the only thing that gets directly change that effects the overal dps meters is the 6% buff to shadowpriest and spriest was already ahead of ret from the getgo. ret is literally not effected by this tuning wave by anyway
also our tier isnt as inpactful as you think it is these past two seasons. it doesnt make or break a spec like other tiers do for other specs. for example arcane tier was a wooping 11% overal in both seasons. while ret season 1 was a 6.1% gain and season two being a 6.5% gain overal
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/vJj7yKuEjrUT1kr4EX7Z9w
447, 450, 450, they all sim lower, in order to even get a positive value I have to juggle the stats around on my gear, you also don’t get to choose the stats on a 450, there is only one 450 ring and it’s crit/haste. It’s also more than 1k, more around 1400 when you actually have consistent uptime.
Weird, cause it looks like the data shows Ret near the bottom and tomorrow WW and BM, will be above them, possibly even Survival. Who’s left down there, Aug and Outlaw, welcome to bottom 3. Ret doesn’t excel at a single boss in this raid, our best is Rashok and we don’t even break middle of the pack.
Are you kidding? Inflated trash that has 0 value in any conversation, the skill floor of Ret is a joke and that’s why you see it continually climb the lower percentile you go, because it’s so easy a caveman could do it as they say. 90-100k DPS is not difficult as long as you have some gear and are a live to hit buttons.
No one is putting in boss damage to talk about how well a class is doing, lots of fights have adds that have to die.
I don’t care about sims or theory crafting, I can see real numbers done by actual humans.
Hilarious, this tier literally has half the first tier sets bonus rolled into it. While it wasn’t a giant leap over the first one, it’s a big leap over nothing. It’s probably close to 10%.
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You say it yourself, meme statistic. Ret has always overperformed in low percentiles since the rework, a consequence of its survivability and Instrument of Retribution.
Balancing around low percentiles or all percentiles is stupid.
How about we swap to a percentile where people actually know how to play the game, like 90 or 95? Ret drops to below average in that margin.
Do you want to make an argument for Aug Evoker bugs? Sure. First lets start by saying that Aug Evoker bugs affect Ret Paladin positively through ES, and we know that Ret isn’t a good target for Prescience and getting Ebon Might is rare, so to find those logs we have to add ‘irregularities’. Aka bump the percentiles to 99/Max.
At 99 Ret is still below average in boss damage. At Max, Ret is slightly above average. Are you going to consider Max as something legitimate in terms of statistics? I wouldn’t, but that’s on you. Most rankings change wildly with it.
Finally, let me add that while there’re a couple of bugs remaining with Aug Evokers, I believe it is mostly related to pet specs, which aren’t that many, and Ignite/ES. So it’s basically 4/5 specs abusing it, and we’re one of them.
The issue isn’t related to boss damage on a void, the issue is when you factor other stuff. Ret is AT BEST at average boss damage ST spec that brings absolutely nothing to encounters with adds due to a mediocre cleave/AoE profile. You’re saying a spec is ok because it can hit a boss and do slightly below average damage, while doing absolutely nothing else. You will say that anything outside of that norm is overtuned. So in your eyes, Outlaw is overtuned and Havoc is overtuned.
I agree our tier set is jack and things could look better in 10.2 if we get something better.
TL;DR: Ret can only do ST and it’s at best average at it. For a spec that can’t do anything else because of the lack of other profiles on its toolkit, that’s objectively being weak at throughput. Anecdotical evidence has no value when we have factual data.
EDIT: Next week most bugs with Aug hooks will be fixed https://www.wowhead.com/news/augmentation-evoker-combat-log-support-improved-pet-damage-allocation-and-334280?webhook
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Just a call on this, this looks extremely weird. Most Rets replaced Eranog going into 10.1.5 with a 447 crafted ring with no issues.
There’s probably something else going on.
well im not one who’ll shy away from saying im wrong, based on simc apl it looks like eggnog ring is being used aswell, granted i guess in perfect gear bis scenarios it’ll push ahead. but plenty of top tier rets were able to replace with a 447 crafted ring so 
not to mention a crafted ring for you is jusy 9 points behind. so maybe with another set of upgrades or crafting double shadowflame you’ll be able to replace it as well. i do know that if you replace blade of justic cdr for judgment cdr you should sim higher
like i stated before the buffs to these specs are barely impactful with ret still edge out on them all. because again auggie damage increase is being incorrectly labeled as those specs damage, which according to the wowhead article “should be fixed” this reset so, we’d haveto wait and see for mroe reliable data
like i said before, if you bother to read the entire statement, some devs use the all percentiles for boss damage and such as a metric along with their own tools. because like it or not, c asuals make up majority of the game and thus should be catered to in some way. like you said ret is so easy that a caveman can play it, which means ret is hard to tune for high end without making it broken for the lower percentiles (inb4 who cares about casuals!!!)
its a mostly st raid, with add phases that can be dealt with by other classes with cleave. ret focuses on being zug zug
feelycrafting is usually the reason why ignorance about specs exist. keep in mind that sim numbers can usually be touched or surpassed by the tip top players of the spec.
read the message prior to this. using sims and math and theorycrafting, i can tell you that this seasons tier set is only a 6.5% gain. you cant pull 10% out of no where and say its true
this was already explained to you so many times in multiple places in multiple different classcord. you already shown that you dont understand nor care to understand
raidbots com/simbot/report/4GaSC7nJSmAenCKvZgKfjU
there you go, ive made it sim higher than eggnog ring, but again add judgement cdr talent instead of blade of justice cdr talent
Do you mind explaining me the situation of UHDK, Fire Mage among others in 20th percentile keeping their position in 90-95th percentiles? Why is somehow Ret not okay doing this?
(inb4 overtuned spec is overtuned!!!)
Nah, do you know why you think you’re right? You said it yourself, because this raid is mostly ST bosses. You’re ignoring cleave profiles because “they can be dealt by other classes” or “they are not important”
Getting some feeling of dejavu from VotI and Havoc DH, and how everyone said our ST “was fine”. Then Havoc had to get buffed 4 times in a row in 10.1 when the raid profile changed from cleave focused to ST focused.
Fact remains all of your explanation to this remains to “it’s fine to be mid”, but that’s false. You’re not mid. You’re ‘mid’ in ST bosses. You’re bottom everywhere else. Don’t mix this with dooming, this is just me reading the data and making an analysis out of it.
We don’t go ST in Echo/Sark because our ST is strong. We go ST in Echo/Sark because our ST/cleave is absolute dogtrash. And that’s a completely different scenario of UHDK going ST for Broodmother in VotI, for example.
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overtuned spec is overtuned, the answer hasnt changed no matter how many times you ask
- Death Strike is a dps loss and is a last resort only used after potion/cookie. Honestly about the same average healing power as ret using guided prayer and healing hands.
- For AMS the real strength is the debuff cheese outside of that ret also has a 60 second 30% of hp shield that absorbs all damage and also deal damage equal to damage absorbed.
- Sacrificial Pact as unholy is stupid considering your ghoul does more damage then you do.
- Enfeeble:Does not apply to environmental damage only direct damage done to you.
- Icebound Fortitude:3 minute cooldown unless you spend 2 talent points which is very rare. Meanwhile ret has 30% damage reduction on a minute cooldown.
- Blood Scent:No one takes that talent
- Veteran of the Third War:For the same two talent points ret gets 20% armor 10% stamina and 10% avoidance, i would trade that 10% more stamina for 10% avoidance in a heartbeat as a DK.
- Suppression:Never taken
- Permafrost:Unholy does take this in raids but from my logs its a whopping 4,000 HPS best case so amazing very jealous…
- Death Pact:Never taken due to it also absorbing 30% of the next healing you receive aka its really a 20% heal on a 3 minute cooldown.
- Lichborne:Only immunity to charm/fear and sleep very niche in pve especially raiding.
- Blood draw:The healing is a complete joke your talking less then 12000 hp per mob.
- Will of the Necropolis:This one is actually very good but sadly due to how the tree is structured it is rarely taken as it more efficient to take Blood Draw instead.
AMZ is garbage in raids due to health scaling and even in M+ the only spec which takes it sometimes is Blood due to its large hp pool.
Hybrids like Ret should use their utility like WoG and Lay of Hands to keep other party member from dying and doing floor dps, if you not going to use your utility you might as well just play a warrior.
Cleanse is niche but depending on group comp and dungeon can also be stupid good. Same goes for Freedom its niche but can cheese certain mechanics for two people and the 30% speed boost can help avoid aoe and increase uptime.
BoP can not only cleanse a bleed effect but also is a aggro drop.
Sac in M+ is great if your tracking cooldowns and know one of your more squishy teammates is going to be taking large damage and die it is very clutch.
Its pretty clear you know nothing about Death knights as half the talents you listed are meme tier levels of bad and honestly i even question if you play Ret at all.
Also while yes i am posting on a forum alt i find hilarious that you are bashing someone and calling their opinion wrong based on their experience while you post on a forum alt claiming to be CE and top 1% pvper.
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Ret paladins not scaling well has been a problem since pretty much forever outside of amazing set bonuses such as ICC was back in Wotlk Ret will at best start an expansion strong and then by the end will be near the bottom.
The crazy part is had they not nerfed mastery so severely with the rework it would not be a problem now.
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If you read the line after I listed all the CDs you would realize that I specifically said that they obviously don’t take all of them and that I never argued at any point that Rets are more tanky than DKs.
However, I don’t buy the “DKs are squishy” that mr Bourrage is trying to sell, as usual trying to gaslight his opinion. DKs are probably the 2nd most tanky melee atm, and they’re not far away from Ret.
If you have survivability issues as a DK, you blow.
The only other slight difference with DKs is that they also do damage, as both Frost and UHDK are close to the top in pretty much any situation (Frost fills profiles that UH doesn’t have)
Also I never claimed to be a 1% PvPer. I’m just a CE raider. I’m from EU, these are my logs. I think I can use my experience to talk about stuff I obviously play. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/eu/draenor/nessarin
And yes, as much as it makes your low back itch, a guy that has multiple CEs and plays the spec at a competitive level knows more than a guy whose only purpose in life is to parrot stuff from other players without even testing them himself in any situation in which it makes sense to use.
If Ret was meant to use their utility like you’re saying, we’d have Shinning Light as Rets, and we don’t. Or we’d get a buff when WoGing people that increases our damage. Or literally ANYTHING that incentivizes the usage of WoG mid combat. But we don’t. The only reason you are using WoGs in people is because you want to play the offhealer role, which in most situations isn’t need, specifically in raid.
Ret is not in a position in which it can spare to use holy power in healing spells. If you want to do, free feel to. I usually play with competent healers. The only situation I use WoGs is when our healers can’t cover that need, and they CALL for it.
We just vastly disagree on what a DPS should do, and I strongly believe the hybrid tag is long dead. Just because you have utility doesn’t mean you have to use it, specially if it’s going to cost you DPS in this situation, and not a little exactly.
Actually I’m bored of arguing with you guys that Ret is meant to be played as a offhealer support of sorts. Link me something from Blizzard in which they say that’s how a DPS is meant to be played and be done with it. The one good thing about this game is that most of us can play however we want and still find success. (and yet nobody has answered why the hell should WoGing people come in the form of a DPS cost, anyway, if its part of our ‘utility’)
Preventing someone from dying is worth more than any single cast of TV or Divine Storm. Any form of repeatable, instant cast healing from a DPS typically comes at the cost of dps, WoG and 5/10 stack of Maelstrom’d Healing Surges/Chain heal come to mind. Otherwise its proc gated like the “new” instant cast regrowth for Bear.
Sucks if you’re parse chasing, but they are tools in our kits we should be using when pressed.
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I repeat, while this is obviously something useful to have, with the vision these people I answered before to, it costs us in the form of throughput in two ways:
1- If it’s really true we’re balanced around being able to heal, our DPS is cut short because of this
2- Using resources to heal are resources you cannot use to DPS, so that’s a double cost
While I understand the people that want to play the ‘healing duty’ and they can definitively do that as a Ret, our primary role is DPS. Utility shouldn’t come at the cost of it. It definitively hasn’t been a thing in the past, Enha specifically was topping a couple tiers not too long ago, so it shouldn’t be now. And I’m almost confident the Hybrid tag just doesn’t exist. Offhealing is a perk.
Again, feel free to disagree, but this is just an opinion based on years on experience. I just won’t go back on it. Accepting it means accepting that some specs will just always be inferior due to replaceable utility.
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Ya ideally any utility needs are covered by BoP/Sac/Freedom in the first place. Us forced to WoG someone is probably a mistake or two compounding outside of our control.
Its not that I disagree, its just a tool we have to cover for mistakes that are an inevitability. I just don’t want to run back from the start of the instance than I do care for my damage.
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That’s completely fine, we agree then.
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I wouldn’t wish ww’s redheaded stepchild status on anyone. However, look at any spec right now that’s top two secondary stats have verse. They scale extremely poor and receive slowly receive flat damage increases from blizz throughout the tier. Your mastery classes are always at the top of the charts and stay up there throughout the patch cycle.
TLDR: you’re turning into ww now because you use verse.
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dude only posted it to be a “gotcha” i wouldnt engage
For a quick fix that would last longer than the minor dmg buff vers classes get occasionally, they could revert their change to mastery from the rework. Either way, we need to scale off of something besides just vers.
As a bit of a disclaimer: I have played ret the entire time wow has been out. Like many PvE rets, you don’t play it because it’s the one that always tops meters. You gotta really like it to play as much as some of us do.
That being said, it is an incredibly poor experience to play and not see your character get much stronger. When I started this tier, I was consistently pulling 100-110k+ dps. Good or bad, that’s about what it was. Now, at the end of the tier, I’m 444, and I can expect to do 110-120k. Again it is what it is. I’ve see people start the tier at 80kdps that are now doing 120-140kdps. They nearly doubled in strength over the tier. It’s purely anecdotal, but it’s truly a feels bad to have gear be nearly just a cosmetic change for you.
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