It could be improved for sure, but for slow and steady Paladins it worked just fine. In fact, if mana costs were focused around Paladin utility (while healing and damage on HP) you could give Emancipate a temporary boost and removal of snares thus forcing the Paladin to manage their mana resource.
1 Like
I meant what I said and stand by it, but you are of course entitled to your opinion!
Seals were not full GCDs so I find that a bit hyperbolic. Enough haste made it very fast, and considering JoR gave you 20% haste on top of that…
I just liked it, not trying to say it was the best thing ever, haha. I’d take that over the downtime ret we have today, with modifications of course.
5 Likes
Would love to have mop or wod version of ret back.
8 Likes
The problems with Retribution are tied almost solely in with an archaic design that was made a while back that no longer actually contributes to modern end game content. You need mobility and you need defensives and you need utility to be a lock for a spot in group content. Retribution fails on all three counts and the only way to overcome that issue would be for it to be an actual glass cannon that put up big numbers, but even that is not a realistic option for us as our damage is no where near where it should be to be considered a glass cannon.
Slow and steady juggernaut style of play should be Retribution’s style, as it seems mobility is clearly what the developers don’t want us to have, so for that to happen two things need to occur:
-
Damage needs to be higher than mobile classes. You can not have a slow specialization be forced to catch more nimble opponents or be forced to move around to dodge fatal effects without rewarding them for doing so. As of current design, Retribution catches a target or plays well, and its’ damage does not feel like we are being rewarded for finding a way to play within our specialization’s limitations.
-
Defensives need to be way better than what they are now. We need multiple bandaid fixes on our already established defensives, such as cool down reductions, and then we need old tools handed back to us in a meaningful way. We need options to take a beating so that we can keep lurching forward toward our adversaries as right now the design philosophy of our class is not realistic as we die before we can even catch, let alone do damage to either bosses or other players.
15 Likes
It seems like Sharrow is mostly talking from a pve standpoint for ret, which is fine I didn’t do much pve in WOD on my ret so I won’t comment on pve stuff. But no one will ever convince me WOD ret felt bad to play in pvp lmao.
I get it people didn’t like emp seals, I wasn’t a fan of it either. But holy avenger basically guaranteed you had easy ready to go burst whenever you hit it with your other cds. Each generator gave you 3 holy power then you just pressed FV. Felt amazing.
2 Likes
I’d be OK being the juggernaut, but they need to make our talents reflect that. The problem I see is that anything that approached that play style broaches into the Protection territory.
5 Likes
And that is also true. Right now the wiggle room that Ret has is always going to come into conflict with the design archetypes of both Holy and Protection. While it is fine to share some sort of variables with your other specializations, it also can mean at times there is a chance that you will begin to tread on what makes them a specialization as well. Which is why they need to actually take time and remodel Retribution as a whole as right now we are in such a state that I would say we really don’t have an actual spot available to us in any end game content.
Retribution, in a perfect world, should be the fast paladin. Protection is about being the stalwart defender staying behind to protect the weak, Holy is about healing the injured and being a barrier between evil spellcraft and innocent lives, and Retribution should be about avenging the fallen as swiftly and brutally as the light allows. We should be diving head first into enemies and destroying them with the light and our mighty hammer, but instead we are stuck moving slowly, and not particularly being that capable of fulfilling our specialization’s identity.
Which brings up the question of what we really are and to be honest, I can’t tell you. I don’t feel like I’m a force of justice and vengeance, I kind of just feel like…a warrior without charge, heroic leap, any defensives, and somehow I got saddled with a combo point system just to make sure I am even slower.
9 Likes
Rets been downhill since Legion. Only got worse over time so im not surprised. It seems like someone took the reins over with the Legion design for ret and is still in charge while also not being a ret player themselves or liking the spec in anyway. Its painfully obvious.
I was ret main since forever until Legion hit. Was sceptical from the beginning when they showed the new animations and overviews and when it went live I was ensured about my concerns. Somebody remember 2x charges on our hands?
I too was super hyped about DF and I still am about some stuff like the profession revamp. But seeing the stubborness and faultiness of certain class design (feral is also heavily neglected) just pisses me off so hard that Im not so sure anymore. Thats also the reason I don’t preorder anymore until im 100% sure I will play a few days before release if at all.
This topic feels 100% like old blizz with its system they know all so much better and giving in to 0 feedback.
8 Likes
I was thinking that the Talent could have some use in group in PVE. Especially if there is a similar interaction with spellwarding. It could have become a Raid CD.
For freedom portion, the utility would be more situational but I could imagine wanting bringing a Ret for say a Sir Denatrius and cheese the first part of the fight mechanic and freedom everyone to get to middle. Things like that.
Hard agree, replace Seasoned Warhorse for this. I do feel like keeping the knock up effect though. I think it really add some flexibility to the ability especially in PVE where you’d get another tool to stop spell cast from mobs and general mitigation for your tank.
Hell, I’d like to see a drag component (as a very optional talent) kinda like D3 Crusader horse if we’re gonna take inspiration from them. Would be really good in Sanguine weeks.
Hard agree
2 Likes
Seeing this post yesterday inspired me to make this new class and ret tree layout. To emphasize our “anti control” and to give a better structure to our trees.
Here’s hoping we can get Unbound Freedom, Heart of the Crusader, Divine Protection, Divine Toll and Auras fixed in the class tree.
Class Tree
- Auras will be reajusted
- Crusader will be replaced with Heart of the Crusader, a passive movement and mounted movement speed for Paladins. While mounted this benefits all alies within your Devo Aura.
- Concentration Aura is now a deeper perk on the Holy Side that stacks with Devo.
- Sanctity Aura is now a deeper perk on the Ret Side that stacks with Devo.
- Retribution Aura has been replaced with Holy Avenger.
- Divine Toll is now in the class tree and will be replaced in the Holy/Prot tree with something of more value.
- Divine Protection is now in the class tree and will be replaced in the Holy/Prot tree with BoW and BoK respectfully.
- Unbound Freedom and Steed of Glory are now in the Class tree.
- Uther’s Devotion is now in the class tree to add synergy to Blessings and Holy Power.
- Spending Holy Power reduces the remaining cooldown of your Blessings by X sec.
- Turn Evil and Lay on Hands have moved to baseline abilities as they are very niche use spells that don’t feel good being a talent.
Ret Tree
- Blessing of Might has been added for Retribution
- Talents in the Ret Tree have been moved or removed to add more intuitive pathing.
- Sanctified Ground now reduces the duration of Fear and Horror effects while standing in Consecration.
- (As Unbound Freedom is in the Class tree, this is a work in progress)
- Ret has access to Falling Sword because its about time Ret gets something cool.
11 Likes
These are the two contending fantasies of ret: either you are not escaping The Ret or you are not moving The Ret. With a LAoTL build you lean towards the forming, favoring a playstyle built around being constantly moving; you are at the battle before anyone else, with just enough enough survivability to keep you vertical until The Tank arrives to take aggro from you. In essence, we are the quintessential bruiser. Sturdy, quick, and liable to hit like…well like a hammer to the face.
The alternative is the Divine Steed build. With minimal mobility, the point is not to constantly pursue the battle but to find a battle and boldly declare:
“This is the hill I shall die on! Either submit or claim me, as there is no other outcome!”
Be it in PvP or in a boss encounter, we choose where we want to be and we fight there until something dies. You can leave, if you want. A couple CDs and we’ll only be able to follow for a few seconds before having to let you go.
There’s also a third option; the utility build. We are middle of the pack: we don’t heal like Holy, we don’t survive like Prot, we don’t deal damage like a warrior, nor can we move like a rogue, but we can fill in all the gaps. Blessings with impactful effects, solid uptime, and a few key cooldowns like LoH or BoP that permit us to catch the little things the tanks or healers almost missed.
I honestly started playing Ret because of the utility options. I was never the top DPS, but im very reactive and appreciated being able to compensate for my inadequacies as a DPS by being able to cover for the rest of the group; temporarily tanking, clutching other DPS, and occassionally using blessings to keep alice teammates who would have otherwise failed a mechanic. While I’d like to have The Juggernaut build, and The Vindicator build has been praised as the highlight of Ret class fantasy back in WoD, I’d be content to have a utility build.
It’s not something I’ve really seen mentioned but I’d actually like to see Ret get Uther’s Blessing. We may not be able to provide any unique features to Holy or Prot, but we’ll almost always have a blessing ready, especially now that everyone gets Spellwarding. All we would need is to get Sanctuary as well and suddenly Ret has a niche that isn’t immediately filled by the other two speccs.
2 Likes
Empowered seals were not what most remember from ret. They were cool I think but empowered seals is part of the whole package. Default final veredict, long range judgement exorcism execution sentence, hakmer of wrath, strong ds procs, DIVINE PROTECTION, Selfless healer, clemency, the first talent tier full of mobility options for eachs likings. Glyphs like burden of guilt too. That is wod ret. A highly mobile melee with lots of ranged spells and nice cds and utility.
2 Likes
WoD PvP was okay for Ret, in my opinion. As you say, the burst was great, and as you could build Holy Power at range there was some ability to heal when trying to close (or run to a pillar). As there were fewer ‘for free’ auto-snares than MoP Emancipate wasn’t as annoying as in MoP, but it was still pretty common to find yourself being unable to move and do anything else at the same time because to move you had to spam Emancipate, and that meant no GCDs to do anything else.
Better than Legion, where it was pretty painful (though blowing up DHs who thought they were all that was fun).
1 Like
Freaking Love the falling sword with FR 
3 Likes
They need to scrap Dusk to Dawn and implement the Templar, let us use 2hander and a Shield. It basically does the same thing, slightly more defense and offense, just is a much better way.
3 Likes
Such a drastic change would need to be a choice IMO.
I’m not necessarily against the idea however.
Really? I wouldn’t think that would be too drastic, maybe it would scale a lil bit too strong, but honestly I’m not really sure.
- To Dusk and Dawn - Removed
- Templar - Added
- Your Faith in the Light magnifies your strength, allowing you to equip a 2hander and a Shield.
- Seal of Order - Redesigned
- Casting SotR causes your next TV to do 10% more damage.
- Casting TV causes your next WoG to heal for 10% more.
- Casting WoG causes your next SotR to increase armor by 10%.
(Numbers adjusted to whatever to offset the bonus damage and armor of wearing a 2h+shield)
My prot Paladin wears a 1hander and a Shield, Dusk to Dawn grants me 6% more damage. If my Prot Paladin equiped a 2hander, would that be more than 6% damage? If yes, that would be like 50% more damage, then nevermind lol.
I just don’t know what the numbers would equal out to be.
1 Like
Split this into two talents: Templar and Lancer. Have one let your Ret abilities work with a one-hander and boost your attack speed to synergize with a zeal/BoW build and one that lets you use a 2-hander and shield, maybe boosting the damage of SoTR or something, and you could give Ret a few different playstyles that are easily readable.
1 Like
I mean, you could just slam a shield on Ret and call it a day but I feel like doing something so bold thematically and visually would need to be equally bold gameplay wise.
Like I said, I’m not against the idea. I myself thought about it in the past, I think it’s the kind of thing that has the potential to be explored in a tree system like they are implementing.
2 Likes
Well, it was tried before with Warriors and Gladiator’s Stance. I don’t think it worked very well considering it made Warriors broken as heck vs melee.
But honestly, that’s supposed to be the Paladin’s strong suit… so maybe it would work out a bit better for us.
I just see Dusk to Dawn and Seal of Order, those two far left cap stone talents, giving us more damage, healing and armor. I would be curious to know where these numbers fall in comparison to actually using a 2h+Shield, just for exploration sake.
Our Auras are a mess, our Blessings are non existent, our visuals are pretty meh. Paladins need some more bold and unique flavors added.
Imagine Falling Sword with a 2hander and a Shield equipped…
4 Likes