Or maybe it was that they brought almost nothing unique to the game anymore. When your entire design was no utiliry but the top dog in dps and all of a sudden you aren’t it diminishes your role.
And there were no stun lock rogues in vanilla?
How many different ways did those rogues have to “assassinate” their targets in vanilla?
I never really cared about the dps race and neither did the people I played with so I can’t know what you went through. I don’t think we will see eye to eye on the issue, but I think your perception is just as valid.
Could you open on someone and take them down to dead in a couple globals in WotLK even in pvp gear? Could You open with a garrote -> backstab and then leave them to die from a rupture? Not necessarily the most optimal, but still fun.
The problem isn’t dps so much but what else did a rogue bring to the raid. Dps was it. And we didnt do that well except during ulduar and icc.
Couldn’t rogues shut down the suppressors during the whelpling gauntlet in BWL?
My friends and I didn’t care about that so much as we just played what we wanted. Now, I feel as if I have to fight from the beginning to create a fun atmosphere for myself because I am experiencing that people like to elevate themselves above the stigmatic even when there is no basis for the stigma in the first place. I want to change the perceptions of vanilla wow.
Oh wow. A whole 3 times rogues can say they were useful besides dps. Suppression room, the reliquary of souls and illidari council.
The time I was talking about though was in wrath which is when everyone did more or less equal damage and rogue and lock population dropped like a rock over 3 expansions.
I’m not talking about vanilla. I’m talking about akaidians beloved wrath.
In vanilla I’m gonna be running a guild and taking whatever.
It’s not so bad. You can ask Theoloras, he knows me from my time on Nostalrius. From Uldaman to Naxxramas I constantly crushed Rogues, Warriors, Mages, in 5 and 40 mans. When you’re a Paladin and you’re dancing auras in UBRS on the Rend gauntlet between Fire and Devotion to mitigate conflags and cleave, people do take notice. Not often. Of course the one thing people notice most is DPS. When you’re dropping consecrates in a big pull 15 minute run nonstop, chugging mana pots, and blowing sappers for fun, sitting at like 450 DPS before BWL comes out, people notice.
I remember my buddy Zeaton, a great Fury Warrior, begging me to play Ret in Molten Core because I changed his entire perspective on it. I did a lot of DPS for a Paladin. I parsed high on a bunch of logs and got to end up playing with NOPE for quite awhile due to it. Shout out to Theoloras for walking me through everything with Ret and how to cheese some encounters as a pseudo spellcaster.
It can totally be done man. I’ll be Ret as well.
I don’t expect to parse a 1500 dps log on Patchwerk. But I’m gonna make some kids feel really bad about themselves and right after I’m going to go Reckbomb kids flying in to Lights Hope Chapel.
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Rogue and lock population plummtted purely because of GToC,representation was stable across the board before and after that raid.
Late wrath had it’s pity/utility specs.
Late legion had pity specs with incredibly limited utility.
You’re picking rets glory days as balance highlights… what a suprise… But hey what do i expect from someone who didn’t raid in TBC when horde paladins of EVERY spec had a valued raid spots regardless of spec.How about cata where pallies of every spec were balanced, Or MoP or WoD? Sort of hard to make sweeping judgements when you’ve SKIPPED raiding them isn’t it?
It’s amazing that someone who has played a single spec for so long knows very little about their spec beyond mashing buttons for “teh leet deepz breh”.
I’d honestly expect someone of your caliber to be flaunting your CE’s but after a quick armory snoop you have none. You have very little experience in progression raiding and it’s either one of two things.
1.You are not a pleasant person to raid with.
2. You don’t play your class, just a single aspect of it.
It doesn’t matter how skilled you are in vanilla, cause at some point you’re going to be asked to do something you don’t want to do and saying “No” is not going to fly.
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Population isn’t a meaningful enough stat on it’s own to derive anything logically. Correlation doesn’t ever imply causation.
My guess is different from yours, and we’ll never know if either is right.
I’d say it’s because: People either wanted to play classes that could fulfill multiple roles or people could finally play the class they actually wanted to DPS on and dropped them like hot cakes.
Notice I said ROLE and not SPEC. There were still exclusively PVP specs in wrath, but only on pures. That doesn’t mean the balance wasn’t good and we’ve been over this before.
A rogue always feels like a rogue regardless of spec. Same for mage and lock. Thematically, they don’t change. An entirely different role means an entirely different feeling and purpose.
And yet no spec was actively hated on in late legion. Nothing even CLOSE to vanilla’s level of hybrid DPS. Besides that, utility is always “do we have x number of this? Then we’re good.” Sure, not everyone had an immunity to soak some stuff against KJ. So what? Once you got what you needed, it was still truly bring the player & not the class.
Funny how even in ret’s strongest iteration it was “OP” in pvp for less than a month before nerf and then only upper 1/3 in PVE. Mid pack if you removed all the pvp specs I mentioned. Whoop. Dee. Do.
Nope. He asked for my opinion and I gave it. Regardless of anything else, WOTLK is the last evolution of vanilla gameplay and the most balanced of that style.
OR I refused to play panda land because fork eastern themed MMOs and big dumb bears? I left as soon as they announced it since I was already dissatisfied with Cata. I might as well be playing a pure, though. I don’t tank or heal. I did do PVP at one point to high levels of success and I did/do raid to my personal commitment level.
Something like grinding is markedly different from something that isn’t the hero role in a raid.
So are you telling us you are so tragically pathetic and bored in your real life that you come to troll the forums here for “a game some poor people and some diehard fanboys play”?
Why am I not surprised that your most liked forum poster is Ziryus.
No, I’m saying the people most likely to be knowledgeable about intricacies regarding classic are people with recent exposure to it in the form of an illegal game. Sorry some of us have to operate off real memory from something we haven’t touched in 12+ years.
Also, I’m tragically bored for 8+ hours a day, but I get paid extremely well to be that bored and I have the freedom to indulge things to fill that boredom.
@Archeon Are you by any chance this Archeon?
I also get paid extremely well and am often bored at my desk for hours a day, so, I feel your “struggle”.
But you know where you don’t see me wasting time with “some poor people and some diehard fanboys”? On the forum, or in a game (or version of), that I don’t currently play now, plan to necessarily play in the future, and have no clear or stated interest in. I don’t go to retail forums to tell people there why the game isn’t fun for me, or what spec is worth a raid spot, or garbage, etc.
So when people come here and do just that, or try to talk about things in clear, certain absolutes with their 12-year stale memory, it just comes across as trolling.
That’s fine, but I do intend on playing classic and I do play retail. I also realize ret is garbage for raids and I know better than anyone the current mindset of raiders, both on private servers (after watching many many youtube videos talking about it and people like esfand still having to deal with it) and live. The elitism will be there in droves over the casual scrubs who don’t actually accomplish much. Sure, they might cobble together enough like-minded scrubs to scrub their way through MC by the time AQ comes out, but those are not what people internally want. That’s just what hybrid DPS will have to accept since they’re known red-headed step children.
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I really do feel like people are purposefully misinforming others when they say off-specs are viable at end game content.
Again, “viable” is a subjective term for the discussion of raiding. Min/max viable? Kill a boss viable? World First viable?
Hunters have terrible scaling on abilities and garbage DPS as a result when set against Warriors, Rogues, Mages, etc. People bring them anyway, and not just because they can tranq a boss, kite a mob, or trap an add – these people earn their raid spots b/c they do the work and they play well with others. Same goes for virtually every other class-in-a-raid position. The only time you see people specifically bottlenecking their own 40 man composition into a “must have” scenario is when they are pushing progressively and competitively – and not all raiding guilds do that.
Well all already know a million times over that Warriors, Mages and Rogues are DPS kings in vanilla. That doesn’t mean you just bring 10 warriors, rogues and mages, and fill the rest with healers. You CAN do that, if you want, but you don’t NEED to do that. Hunters do fine damage, Paladins do fine damage, Shadow Priests do fine damage, Warlocks do fine damage, etc – they all do fine. A few off-spec players aren’t making or breaking a raiding guild if the guild has good players. They may not be setting server firsts (or they MAY!), but the point is – they can function just fine. Stop telling people they either cookie cutter or hit the road – may be in YOUR guild/raiding philosophy, they would be S.O.L. – but not everyone has your philosophy.