That’s my point. You can’t say how accurate or inaccurate Lightshope actually is when talking about the proc rate of the weapon which is at the core of doing any theorycrafting on it.
The entire basis of all your math is literally nothing more than a guess based on what we remember from 2004-2006.
Your testing doesn’t provide a base to work from in this case because the foundation was built on a guess rather than on archived data.
you’re missing the point…it provides a base to work from once Classic launches
if the proc rate is less than 2PPM then everyone’s debuff uptime goes down - is the proc rate ends up higher then everyone’s debuff uptime goes up
what I am saying right here and right now that cannot be disputed - is that a Melee Hunter’s personal DPS does 1/3 to 1/2 of my own personal DPS and I have several raid logs to show it as posted in my post earlier
There is a comment on Classic-WoWhead from 2006, patch 1.12, where a user states the proc rate is about 2PPM, like Theloras said.
That’s not private server data. That’s from someone who played in 2006, using data that was accurate at the time.
It does provide a comparison between uptimes from different classes. Whether the uptime is higher or lower, the difference in uptime between classes is still going to be similar.
DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER!!!
_By Marinus (958 – 11·13) on 2006/10/02 (Patch 1.12.1) _
Having mixed feelings about this weapon. It is a raid weapon solely (although useful on AV generals and such) which makes it quite expensive for the use you’re going to get out of it. Has about a 2 PPM rate, meaning it will be up on target avg 17% of the time. Flurry specc’d warrior will probably see 20% of the time. Damage output is really low however. I’ve dropped from top 5 DPS meters (fury warrior) to right around 20 using this.
soma2 [on 2006/06/25]
Good data, as your numbers show, proc-chance is decided only by the effects PPM (procs per minute, seems to be around 2 for Nightfall) and the speed of the weapon. Increasing your attackspeed (like you did with SoC) or doing extra instant attacks can let you get more procs per minute.
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=19169/nightfall#comments
This deserves it’s own comment. This is from user Alinor on Thottbot posted on 06/26/2006
Since I got this nice axe I did some research on how beneficial this thing is.
Since blizzard made meny weapon procs on per/minute basis I decided to test if increasing attack speed is in anyway beneficial to get more procs.
Here are the results with regular attacks, at the weapon speed that is 3.5
On the other hand I used Seal of Crusader this seal gives 40% attack speed increase. Here we go
The difference is obvious, SoC is gives about 40% more procs.
Now raid benefit. Based on the stats above while using SoC during 28.5mins I got 611 hits and 113 procs.
611/113=18.4% proc rate
Proc duration is 5sec, so 113*5=565sec Time debuff is on.
If fight is 28.4 mins and proc is on for 9.4 mins iit’s 30%.
All casters get 15% DPS boost for 30% of the time.If we take a cast of 2.5sec then 565/2.5=226 casts can land in 28.4mins with this buff on. If frost bolt deals 800dmg then 226*15%of800=27120 more DPS in 28.4 mins from one mage.
But we all know that it looks nice here but in reality we will not be able to cast 100% of the time when the proc is on, not even 70% but we might hit around 50% or 40% of the procs, still 10,000 more DPS from single caster in 30mins is great.I think this weapon is more beneficial for paladins because of SoC and statistic I got, but I might be wrong.
Preach my brother!
and you’re missing my point: Your base is worthless because it has no link back to how Vanilla actually was.
Increasing or decreasing the proc rate will not alter the uptime of both Paladins and Hunters to an equal degree because of how they proc the weapon.
Your logs show that a single Hunter did 1/3 to 1/2 of your DPS. To claim that it is fact that all Hunters do that in melee is downright dishonest.
If Theloras is willing to accept a single comment from 2006 as evidence then I’d like to revisit Storm Gauntlets.
I showed him a video from 2006 of it not scaling with spell damage and he dismissed it as “we don’t know if that was PTR or not”.
scroll up - two independent links from different patches - and we don’t know whether it was from a PTR or not - since we had multiple independent comments from TBC onwards that said the proc items did scale with spell dmg
and again, I posted video evidence.
but I guess evidence only applies when it backs up what you want it to be?
dude, I WROTE BLIZZARD AND ASKED THEM
I even went so far as to file GM tickets on battle.net but wasn’t able to get an answer:
https://cloud.githubusercontent.com/assets/4651925/3946600/59247fee-2676-11e4-9fa8-f1868709971e.jpg
it’s not like I didn’t try to get an answer straight from the source…
Of course a CS rep doesn’t know. They’re customer service, not the people who dig into old server code and database backups.
I originally asked a while ago in this thread where the proc rate of Nightfall comes from and you couldn’t provide an answer.
Luuni finally did so yes, 2 PPM is a decent place to start. It’s not irrefutable but it’s still Vanilla data.
I’m just pointing out some hypocrisy of yours here: You’re willing to accept a few wayward comments from back in the day because they agree with the outcome you want, but you refuse to accept video evidence because it doesn’t.
I’m sure if I put in a ticket about the proc rate of Nightfall in Vanilla I would get a “I’m sorry but I don’t know the answer” as well.
try walking in my shoes and the sheer number of haters and trolls who have tried to break down everything that I tried to FIX on private servers
do you have any idea just how many people crapped on me for saying that you could get reck charges from using /sit or X when I posted this video?
How to be a Gankadin
Published on Aug 8, 2006
cuz they used this as their evidence - http://blue.cardplace.com/cache/wow-paladin/1069149.htm
> Can I sit down to force a crit and gain a charge?
> Charges will not generate off auto attacks or npc attacks by trying to sit down and force a crit. However, ability crits from physical abilities such as Sinister Strike, Hamstring, Auto-shot, Aimed shot, etc will generate a charge if you’re sitting.
never mind the fact that the actual guy who wrote that guide lo and behold said this last summer on these very classic forums:
Baconn<Reverends of Swagger>120 Human Paladin22760315 posts
Got linked over to this post from I assume Theloras, and I can shed a little light on Reckoning. Some of the info from my 14 year old guide was a little out-of-date: IIRC when the sticky dropped I stopped updating the guide.
Normally if you’re sitting down you would not get Reckoning charges from auto-attacks. However, you could gain charges from random NPCs by constantly sitting and standing up due to server lag: mob would try to attack you as your were sitting, so it’d be a forced crit. However, if you stood up just as you were getting hit, the server would see you as if you were standing and get a Reckoning charge.
or all the haters who tried to get HOLY RESISTANCE actually exist on private servers…
Blazefury Medallion
Binds when picked up
Neck
+13 Agility
+14 Stamina
+12 Fire Resistance
Requires Level 60
Equip: Adds 2 fire damage to your melee attacks.
By Siralex on 02/04/2008 (Patch 2.3.3)
I have actually tested this necklace while on a PTR and noticed the fire damage increases by about 50% of your spell damage. I personally was getting 646 regular hits with it and 969 crits (untrinketed). This could possibly be a great item for casters in Arenas.
Storm Gauntlets
Binds when equipped
Hands Mail
218 Armor
+7 Intellect
+10 Fire Resistance
Durability 40 / 40
Requires Level 54
Equip: [Adds 3 Lightning damage to your melee attacks.]
Equip: [Increases damage done by Nature spells and effects by up to 21.]
By QFred on 09/10/2012 (Patch 3.1.3)
Back in the days, the damage from this proc was affected by crit chance and spell power. So it would do more than 3 damage on each attack, often. Plus, it had a quite awesome lightning sound and visual effect.
Fiery Plate Gauntlets
Binds when equipped
Hands Plate
379 Armor
+10 Fire Resistance
Durability 45 / 45
Requires Level 53
Equip: [Adds 4 fire damage to your weapon attack.]
By sasuci on 02/01/2010 (Patch 3.1.3)
The SP affect the 4dmg something around 30-50% of ur SP. My holy pala have them and are AWESOME!
so once again - irregardless of what Nightfall’s actual PPM proc rate ends up being once Classic launches…
here is the difference in personal DPS by a Melee Hunter vs a Retribution Paladin on Patchwerk:
21 Theoloras (107160)
449.9/s 2.7%
26 Bullmax (64839)
272.2/s 1.6%
https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Viewer/?id=15544&exp=0&upl=21338
18 Theoloras (139204)
453.8/s 3.5%
23 Bullmax (60991)
198.8/s 1.5%
https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Viewer/?id=13725&exp=0&upl=18288
A Melee Hunter ends up doing 1/3 to 1/2 DPS of what a Retribution Paladin can do.
Actually this is less reliable because your sample size is 1 Hunter and 1 Paladin, which is laughable.
Though on the topic of Nightfall I did some quick math assuming a 2 PPM(since we now have something suggesting that’s a decent number =P):
In a 10 minute span you’ll swing Nightfall 171 times. The proc rate of Nightfall has to be ~11.7% to make 171 hits in 10 minutes proc 20 times, or 2 PPM.
Paladins using SoR get another 171 chances, but it always comes at the same time you white hit.
That means Paladins get 40 total procs, and of this:
With 8 partial procs, 2 wasted procs, and 30 full procs a Paladin over 10 minutes should have an up time on average of 29.67%.
For Hunters we’ll assume that Wing Clip can be used once every 2 seconds. This accounts for lag/human reaction time on top of the GCD.
That means they get 300 Wing Clips in 10 minutes. On top of the normal 20 procs from white hits, they get another 35 from Wing Clip.
Any given proc will be followed up by 2 additional Wing Clips for a 22% chance for a partial proc. These will be split between 2 second and 4 seconds depending on which Wing Clip procced.
This means 6 highly wasted procs(2 second duration), 6 partially wasted(4 seconds), and 43 full procs.
That’s an up time of 41.83%.
Granted certain buffs may shift those number around a bit but that’ll be the baseline of what each class should be averaging given calculated 2 PPM.
dude, get over yourself -those two raid parses were from a LIVE server - but we tested every single class/spec who could swing Nightfall on a test server against target dummies for extended periods multiple times
PS you forgot JUDGEMENT of Righteousness being able to trigger procs…
Yeah, you could, by mashing X and fooling the server into thinking you weren’t sitting by the time you were getting hit by the forced crit. The only way to get reck stacks off NPCs was by exploiting. We aren’t playing on 2004 hardware for Classic, no reason for that exploit to happen in Classic.
Did you even read the guy’s response that you posted yourself?
Not an exploit friend - Seal Twisting used the same server lag and Blizzard said it was “creative use of Game Mechanics”
Or are you calling every single Blood Elf Retribution Paladin who played during TBC bug abusers?
PS a Poster even said in the ORIGINAL vanilla forum post that it was possible:
Hwangstar
Level 60 Human Paladin
Azshara
13. Re: Guide to Reckoning V2 (Current 1.10) | 2:58:34 AM PDT
"sitting down DOES store a charge for reckoning from npc auto attacks
what you have to do is stand up right as they are about to connect and you will store a charge.
i used to run around orgrimmar and get charges off creeps and then unload on unwary clothie."
https://wayback.archive.org/web/20060719084043/http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com:80/thread.aspx?fn=wow-paladin&t=1069149&p=1&tmp=1#post1069149
Get over what? Challenging that your math may not be perfect?
It sounds like you need to get over yourself. I’m not some hater from a private server who wants to accuse you of stuff, but neither will I accept things from private servers if there isn’t a good basis for doing so.
If we include JoR then the uptime for Paladins goes to 36%. It’s worth noting that Hunters can push their number higher too by being more reactive with Wing Clip. Assuming a 1.5s GCD + 0.5 second reaction/lag is VERY generous in favour of Paladins in 2019.
Even with haste enchants, there’s nothing there to claim that “an Alliance Hunter is going to have an upkeep with Nightfall somewhere around or slightly below Retribution Paladin.”
your assumption that we would base our end results on only one or two tests…
our results over multiple tests show the following results ON AVERAGE:
THIS IS ALL STATED IN THE THREAD along with screenshots and breakdowns for gear, spec and overall test setup - because unlike you we actually ran the tests.
PS when the hell have I ever stated “an Alliance Hunter is going to have an upkeep with Nightfall somewhere around or slightly below Retribution Paladin”
Their PERSONAL DPS will be much lower than a Ret Paladin.