If they can’t use MS due to debuff slots do they also not use Deep Wounds? Is Deep Wounds before or after Impale?
No, now you’re confusing optimal and viable. What you’re defining is actually viable. Optimal is what results in the best possible performance. For that, you have to min/max every aspect.
If you want to have a good, easy time getting a group, you want to be something that is part of the theoretical optimal. Otherwise, you’re just going to be boot licking and begging, or settling for something not in-line with what you want.
A Melee Hunter will get you a few extra seconds of Nightfall debuff uptime but do 1/2 to a 1/3 of my DPS in the process.
That being said, you should use BOTH a Melee Hunter and Ret Paladin both swinging Nightfall and you will get ~65% debuff uptime on average.
If you add an OT Prot Warrior weaving both Annihilator and Nightfall and you will boost your average uptime to ~80%
Me solo swinging Nightfall on PW = 37% uptime
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/484066218911727618/484066529030438912/patchwerk_nightfall_uptime_two.jpg
Melee Hunter + Me with Nightfall on PW = 65% uptime
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/484066218911727618/484066527721684992/double_nightfall.jpg
I bet you get more net raid DPS without two nightfall slots. Hell, I bet you get more net dps without any nightfalls at all.
Deep Wounds is low priority debuff set at prio 1 compared to higher debuffs set at prio 2 or 3 meaning that Deep Wounds will never be applied in raids.
The only time Deep Wounds can be put up against a raid boss is against the melee Twin Emperor since he is immune to all schools of magic except for Holy.
1 Like
are you trying to say that each person swinging Nightfall puts up their own Nightfall debuff?
is that what you are trying to say?
I’m trying to say that I bet the difference in total NF contribution + NF weilder DPS is lower than a raid that has two more bamf DPS and no nightfall debuff at all.
Palm meet Face…
If you min/max’d every aspect, you’d be summoning some Pumpkin Bois with this:
Do you summon Pumpkin Bois, Akaidian?
2 Likes
Maybe if you’re making a melee heavy raid. If you’re gonna be ‘optimal’ then I suppose it would be melee heavy.
And best possible performance overall for a raid doesn’t need to stack all fury warriors and ignite mages but feel free to only take those to your raids because none of us care what you think nor care to raid with someone who’s going to start trash talking everyone the moment 1 tiny little thing goes wrong.
Someone doesn’t understand math…
Sure, have fun making it past first raid tier when everyone keeps ditching your raids because you can’t accept that people aren’t pulling theoretical dps numbers and you fly off your rocker about it.
Wanting better overall raid performance for the collective good, is -selfish-?
That’s some interesting mental gymnastics you just performed there.
Here’s the reasons to get a Ret in vanilla:
-
You like the guy are willing to accept the performance loss
-
You can find literally no one else of a superior spec worth bringing, and he’s got a nightfall… Even so, anytime he wins loot, he’s hamstringing your guild long term by wasting upgrades better spent on others.
-
#2, but with the caveat that this guy is slightly better since he’s willing to hold nightfall, AND willing to pass on all other loot so that he’s not wasting drops that would be better suited for better classes/specs.
-
You for some reason don’t have enough heal paladins to cover basic blessings.
In every other situation your guild is better served by recruiting a person of equal skill/effort output of a better class, or a class that soak otherwise unwanted raid loot… or just encouraging the ret to reroll to one of those classes/specs.
2 Likes
The one thing you absolutely should take note of is the fact that Seal of Command is not a normalized attack as is the case with all instant yellow attacks performed by Warriors. Whereas their attacks were normalized to be based around a swing speed of 3.3 (ie: Mortal Strike) SoC is merely normalized around its statistical ability to proc 7 times per minute based on your weapon’s swing speed.
This means that the slower the weapon the better - with an ideal swing speed at 3.8 - and for any 2handed weapon 3.4 or faster, you should use Seal of Righteousness instead.
In addition, Seal of Command itself will always do 70% weapon damage no matter what rank you cast - it is only the Judgement that is increased as you use higher ranks of the spell - there really isn’t any point in using rank 5 unless you have Intellect or Spell Damage on your gear.
The only reason why you would want to judge SoC every 8 seconds would be to gain an extra chance to proc the Vengeance talent which increases your melee and holy damage by 15% for 8 seconds provided that you have 5/5 points in the talent.
[ 7 / (60 / 3.2) ] = 37.3% proc chance
[ 7 / (60 / 3.3) ] = 38.5% proc chance
[ 7 / (60 / 3.4) ] = 39.6% proc chance
[ 7 / (60 / 3.5) ] = 40.8% proc chance
[ 7 / (60 / 3.6) ] = 41.9% proc chance
[ 7 / (60 / 3.7) ] = 43.1% proc chance
[ 7 / (60 / 3.8) ] = 44.3% proc chance
SEAL OF COMMAND DAMAGE COMPENDIUM (TOP 25 2HANDED WEAPONS)
The calculations were made for a paladin with the following stats :
800 attack power
15% chance to crit
140 spellpower
+stats (crit%, agi, str, attack, spellpower) on the weapons are included. (procs are not)
- means the weapon has an uncalculated proc or effet that can potentially increase weapon total dps
- means the weapon has an uncalculated proc or effect that can potentially increases SoC dps
Rank, name SoC DPS White DPS White + SoC DPS
- Dark Edge of Insanity** 52.6 129.4 181.9
- Severance 53.2 127.3 180.5
- Ashkandi, Greatsword 51.0 125.2 176.2
- Grand Marshal’s Claymore 53.0 120.3 173.3
- Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros* 51.7 120.1 171.8
- Barb of the Sand Reaver 50.4 116.9 167.3
- Kalimdor’s Revenge* 45.1 119.9 165.0
- Herald of Woe 46.4 116.4 162.8
- Spinal Reaper 46.1 115.8 162.0
- Bonereaver’s Edge** 46.1 115.7 161.9
- Drake Talon Cleaver* 46.0 115.3 161.3
- Hammer of Ji’zhi 46.7 112.1 158.8
- Neretzek, The Blood Drinker* 47.9 110.7 158.6
- Zin’rokh, Destroyer of Worlds 48.6 109.4 158.0
- The Untamed Blade** 44.5 111.3 155.8
- Draconic Maul 45.3 110.4 155.7
- Obsidian Edged Blade** 44.1 110.3 154.4
- Manslayer of the Qiraji 45.7 108.2 153.9
- The Unstoppable Force 47.3 106.4 153.7
- Draconic Avenger 41.8 110.6 152.4
- Sulfuron Hammer* 45.2 104.1 149.4
- Finkle’s Lava Dredger 37.1 107.2 144.3
- Nightfall 40.6 107.1 147.6
- Fist of Cenarius 43.6 103.3 146.8
- Doomulus Prime 45.0 100.9 145.9
http://leftoversraiding.org/index.php/topic/2297/1/2h-and-1h-damage-compendium-%28soc-and-sor%29.html
One thing I am holding out for (because, despite my adherence that ret as we know it is garbage and undeserving of a raid slot) is to see true numbers when we get to lvl 60. I know that pservers didn’t get everything right, especially bosses having holy dmg resistance, so I honestly hope they are more competitive with the knowledge we have now.
I’d love nothing more than to actually be desired in raids like a mage/fury.
We are all servants of the One True God…
Esotarious
Praise be his name
1 Like
We’ve already been over this though: You can’t provide a source as to private servers having any idea what the proc rate of Nightfall actually is supposed to be or how it’s supposed to work.
That doesn’t make it wrong but it does make your math based on something that you can’t even provide a strong argument for.
What we can mathematically show is that Hunters get significantly more chances to proc the weapon, with those chances significantly more spread out than what Ret Paladins get.
I feel many people besides Sabetha are missing the point. If Blizzard keeps the population numbers similar to original Vanilla, you guys aren’t going to get an “optimal” raid since it will be very demanding for 40 people to invest so much time.
Everyone looks at private servers as an example. “Oh well I did it on a private server.” You did Naxx on a server that is a global server and is also one server. Not every Classic server is even going to have enough of a hardcore playerbase.
On my main realm I have a world 20 mythic raiding team. They raid around 16-20 hours a week for progression. That’s 4-5 days at 4 hours per night of raiding. So let’s assume you need flasks. They last for 2 hours. So you need 2 of them per night. They sell for 100 gold.
So now for one night of raiding, you need 200 gold. That’s 4 hours of farming Dire Maul: East. So for the whole week, you need 1000 gold for your 20 hours of raiding. That’s 20ish hours of farming just for gold to buy your one flask. Not to mention other consumables, world buffs.
I think when Classic launches and there are multiple NA/EU/OCE/SA servers people will soon realize their private server population is spread thin across these realm. Not every realm will have 40 or 50 players who are willing to put in the time to do Naxx when it releases.
So… you’re left with that Ret paladin.
2 Likes
no one knows what the proc rate is other than Blizzard
on Lightshope it’s set at 2PPM which is neither underwhelming nor overpowered
if that number is wrong in the end once Classic launches then so be it, but from our testing we at least have a base to work from
yes, a Melee Hunter has a slightly higher debuff uptime than a Ret Paladin does - at no time have I ever said anything otherwise - but the Melee Hunter’s PERSONAL DPS is only about 1/3 to 1/2 of MY PERSONAL DPS
See the raid parses below - Bullmax and I both swinging Nightfall on PW and his personal DPS being 1/3 to 1/2 of my own:
3997548 (16782.2/s)
1 Bigpapi (251388)
1055.4/s 6.3%
2 Domzori (233165)
978.9/s 5.8%
3 Catastrophe (216459)
908.7/s 5.4%
4 Dragonaut (196220)
823.8/s 4.9%
5 Imagurlirl (196071)
823.1/s 4.9%
6 Choob (195908)
822.4/s 4.9%
7 Ohotdarn (192210)
806.9/s 4.8%
8 Laserd (191931)
805.8/s 4.8%
9 Anois (191272)
803/s 4.8%
10 Sareene (179029)
751.6/s 4.5%
11 Xeonas (174312)
731.8/s 4.4%
12 Zaethul (168382)
706.9/s 4.2%
13 Courtois (151621)
636.5/s 3.8%
14 Nigly (150924)
633.6/s 3.8%
15 Crocykans (144367)
606.1/s 3.6%
16 Grimhaze (142904)
599.9/s 3.6%
17 Bounceit (139713)
586.5/s 3.5%
18 Waylander (127223)
534.1/s 3.2%
19 Evilkneivel (122932)
516.1/s 3.1%
20 Taladril (110113)
462.3/s 2.8%
21 Theoloras (107160)
449.9/s 2.7%
22 Lumpystumps (80789)
339.2/s 2.0%
23 Alohaas (75147)
315.5/s 1.9%
24 Muuguu (73020)
306.5/s 1.8%
25 Knyght (65026)
273/s 1.6%
26 Bullmax (64839)
272.2/s 1.6%
27 Garthonnix (51783)
217.4/s 1.3%
https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Viewer/?id=15544&exp=0&upl=21338
^^^this is where we got 65% combined debuff uptime^^^
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/484066218911727618/484066527721684992/double_nightfall.jpg
3995942 (13027.6/s)
1 Marmi (301406)
982.6/s 7.5%
2 Bigpapi (252656)
823.7/s 6.3%
3 Zaethul (219590)
715.9/s 5.5%
4 Laserd (216619)
706.2/s 5.4%
5 Ohotdarn (202869)
661.4/s 5.1%
6 Choob (195241)
636.5/s 4.9%
7 Lxe (192997)
629.2/s 4.8%
8 Grimhaze (187298)
610.6/s 4.7%
9 Domzori (187078)
609.9/s 4.7%
10 Catania (182050)
593.5/s 4.6%
11 Evilkneivel (181835)
592.8/s 4.6%
12 Donnita (179258)
584.4/s 4.5%
13 Xeonas (175956)
573.7/s 4.4%
14 Sareene (172202)
561.4/s 4.3%
15 Catastrophe (168349)
548.9/s 4.2%
16 Courtois (154825)
504.8/s 3.9%
17 Emptyshadow (150712)
491.4/s 3.8%
18 Theoloras (139204)
453.8/s 3.5%
19 Waylander (123444)
402.5/s 3.1%
20 Sigmis (96490)
314.6/s 2.4%
21 Taladril (82957)
270.5/s 2.1%
22 Fleshstix (62139)
202.6/s 1.6%
23 Bullmax (60991)
198.8/s 1.5%
24 Alohaas (54620)
178.1/s 1.4%
25 Garthonnix (44610)
145.4/s 1.1%
https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Viewer/?id=13725&exp=0&upl=18288