As previously mentioned you can kill Patchwerk with an average of 342 damage per second if you have 27 members in the dps role.
Which is like stupid low for the coventated Naxx40, you cant clear Heroic Jaina with Heroic Ghuun level dps.
Classic Raiders and PvPers are literal fossils compared to modern level of play. It’s just that Classic wow in general had alot more to offer then killing a boss and getting loot while rushing off to the next boss.
Numerous videos go into how “hard” Naxxramous actually was.
Naxxramous, by people who cleared the content at the time, said it wasn’t hard mechanically. It was just time-consuming. You needed to farm outside materials, have more tanks than one would generally need.
Whereas Mythic raids today require 20 people instead of 40 people. Is this generally easier? No. Because if 1/20 mess up, it may mean a wipe. But if 1/40 mess up, you’re most likely fine.
World of Warcraft Classic is a marathon. It always was. Rank 14, the top PvP spot isn’t reserved for folks who have 50+ macros, those who are lightning quick. It’s given to people who play the most. Same goes for raiding. It isn’t hard. There are hardly any mechanics on the fights. It’s just running the gear treadmill, which again, isn’t harder, just takes more time. 
I like Classic because of the time investment. My gear means something because it takes longer to get. Not because clearing 40 man Ony for my T2 helm is “hard”.
So because of this, I laugh at all of the people who are going to min/max and say you need to mix/max to clear top level content. You really don’t need that. Play what you want. The average raider in BFA is leagues ahead of the average raider in Vanilla. We have better addons to hold our hands.
Current cutting edge end-game raiding is much more challenging than Vanilla Naxxramas on a mechanical level, and due to the horribly-flawed Azerite system. Add-ons and timers and alerts are there and much more bold and outlined, and boss abilities are loud and clear, but they are much more numerous, if not so devastating.
What makes Vanilla WoW hard is the time investment. The game itself is very straightforward and there are, as evidenced by this thread, optimal and viable specs, the latter of which proving you don’t have to run perfectly min-maxed to clear all of the content.
The beauty of Vanilla is that it targets all audiences of all ages and all abilities. Naxxramas was never cleared by everyone years ago due to a number of variables, but the biggest one was the lack of time it was available. The lack of knowledge and understanding of game mechanics by the bulk of the community also attributed to this.
With our skillsets honed and sharpened, private servers offering relatively solid scripting, and our general understanding of classes and their respective itemization, Vanilla is going to be downright crushed by some people. I won’t say everyone.
Because the single biggest mitigating factor to the “difficulty” of Vanilla is the sheer time investment. Many people just won’t be able to do it. Hitting rank 14 or getting through Naxxramas is going to be a second job for most people. And sacrificing their real lives to achieve those goals is not as possible.
But, should the project remain for years, people will slowly get to clear those hurdles and enjoy those facets of Vanilla.
I agree with you regarding the frequency of mechanics, but the severity of Vanilla mechanics are hidden a little…
The real challenge of Pre-Naxx raiding was resource management. Something could take place in raid that was a wipe but you just did not know it until the fuel tank reached zero before the boss was dead.
Thing is, resource management is super important in vanilla raiding, that’s why some of us are so hard nosed about going back to pre-naxx threat management because it slows the pace of DPS, and in turn raises the difficulty level of the raid environment by quite a lot.
The system in place during 1.12 is designed for and only for Naxxramas raiding, it however is a massive nerf to all content that existed before Naxx.
This is not saying Naxx is easy, that raid is a guild breaker for a reason. There is also a good evidence for this even on the private servers that many agree are easier than OG vanilla; where less than 1% of the population reaches naxx let alone clears it.
Yeah, and I should bite my tongue a little too, after all, I only did 6/15 Naxx in actual Vanilla. Looking back, we simply did not have the ability or utilize buffs and consumables as much as we should have.
I really miss the days when DPS had to wait for 3 sunders because tanks couldn’t roll in there with an impale build and cap TPS within the first few sunders and basically AFK tank the rest of the fight.
Modern WoW ruined that and by a small measure, so did the threat change.
Heya spokesperson of the paladin alliance, cant post a new topic since im not subscribed but will hijack this thread.
I’ve got a few questions I’m hoping you could help answer.
Q1: If while attacking, i glancing blow and then my Seal of Command procs from that hit, will it hit for 70% of that 40% reduced glance?
Q2: Similarly, how important is weapon skill for a 2h retri?
Q3: Did edge-master hand guards effect 2h skill in vanilla? (afaik its only 1h in private).
Q4: Will weapon enchants proc seal of command in classic?
Q5: Will/Can weapon oils proc seal of command?
Q6: Would sharpening stone and Weapon dmg enchant increase the seal of command proc dmg?
Q7: For classic should I stack spell dmg OR Would i build for STR/AP/Weapon skill to max melee swings and by extension Seal of command proc dmg?
Q8: If both, are there rough ratios or soft cap values i need to hit? Crit values, spell power values… all of it etc.
This is open to all hardcore paladins who know their stuff- Theloras, Esfand, Killerduki and the likes.
Actually you’d be suprised about threat. Just did a +7 atal where I gave the tank a few seconds for threat before popping trink, War bringer and bladestorm.
I ended up dead on the floor before the healer could react thanks to the tank not generating enough threat in 4 globals.
It “should” hit for it’s base amount, My memory is sketchy as hell towards that sort of thing.
It will increase your white damage and reduce miss chance and since early on white damage is huge it’s worth it.
Nope.
Nope.
yes.
Capped at 7ppm, theloras will give accurate numbers on when to switch over.
Those are from my sketchy memories of TBC, some things may have changed by no doubt therloas will correct me if im wrong.
No, you will be healing.
#NoChanges
Vanilla worked like this:
If you’re lucky there might be one Fury warrior and/or one Shadow priest and/or Feral druid in the whole raid, but that’ll be it for 40-man—but generally no.
In vanilla, we gave the server first Ashkandi to a hunter. Needless to say, the tanks were not happy.
Good thing your stone age mentality isn’t as pervasive as it used to be.
Players who wanna play hybrids in classic hit me up so you don’t have to deal with cavemen like the above poster
It was how it was. We also called your kind scrubs.
Have fun wiping in MC until the end of time.
Wanna put your money where your mouth is? I bet you 5 wow tokens that I can clear MC with a realistically balanced guild before content bucket 2 comes out.
Someone can be a ret paladin in MC.
Like I said before… Classic is mainly about time investment. If you want to play a “meme” spec, you need to spend lots of time. But if you show up as a ret paladin with pre-raid BiS gear and full consumables, you won’t be turned away compared to the fifth fury warrior who just shows up.
Also if you use your time to donate consumables to the guild, then you’ll certainly be allowed to come.
No further comment.
You can show up to Naxx with a ret paladin, especially since they do a bit better against undead mobs. I was just using MC as an example as you mentioned MC.
I plan on playing a Paladin/Druid in Classic and I plan on going hardcore. I was in a hardcore guild at the start of Legion. The guild was mostly filled with people who worked from home. We played World of Warcraft for around 16+ hours a day to prepare for raiding Mythic.
If you have someone who plays a warrior for 8 hours a day compared to someone who plays a “meme” spec for 16 hours a day, the player with more time has a greater chance for success. You have a greater number of dungeon runs you can complete. You have more time for farming gold. You just have more access to the most important aspect of Classic…time.
With regards to Naxx, while I haven’t personally raided the instance in it’s 2006 state, I’ve seen videos by people who have cleared it. They stated that mechanically it was not hard compared to today. It just took lots of time to prepare for it. So again, a small fraction of the playerbase will never see this place due to the time investment needed onto a character.
If you have a person who plays a ret/holy/prot paladin, whatever you want to play, who puts in the time to stand out, you’ll have a spot. Look at Nightfall. You need exalted with the Thorium Brotherhood to craft that.
If you have a player in your guild who spends 16 hours a day solely focused on getting that reputation to exalted, then going through the steps to craft the item either mostly by themselves through farming gold to buy the materials or farming them, you’re most likely going to keep that player since Nightfall is a big help to the guild. If you won’t take that player because they play a “meme” spec, some other guild will.
You, and everyone like you, are the reason why retail WoW has gone to ****. I would appreciate it if you and your kind stayed as far away from Classic as possible, because you’re just going to ruin that too.
Just ignore him, He’s an alexensual fanboi and a hypocrite. For all his elitist talk his guild that he refuses to leave is exactly the sort of guild he doesn’t want to join in classic.
preraid bis itemization is not obvious for now;
it depends on availability of 1.10+ gear from brd/lbrs/ubrs;
in most cases it is a choice between “str, int, stam, spellpower” and “str(ap), agi(crit), stam”;
without a knowledge about other items (weapon sp scaled procs, trinkets, etc) , calculation of veng uptime , all possible procs … it is just impossible to say which item is better after all,
yes, and it is all about numbers,
for hit rating, as i remember, it should be 9% for 2h wep to never have a miss on boss (correct me if im wrong on it)
there is no hard cap values on sp, str, crit (it is not achievable even with full forever bis and world buffs ),
but if you see a today dps calculator you know that dps values of your stats is not a fixed thing but could differs with your overall gear stat, build, special items with procs, and possible enviroment;
7 ppm is not a hardcap it is a chance based number with just autoattack;
as i remember it is not hardcapped at 7ppm,
there was no any kind of script or hidden cd which prevents SoCom proc if it overwhelms some limitation;
7ppm is for autoattacks with base wep speed;
but the proc chance has been calculated for each landed melee hit separetly,
it is calculated on formula
Procs per hit = (Weapon speed) / (60 / Procs per minute)
so for example
for 3.5 wep speed it was ~40.8 % chance of SoComm proc on every succesefull melee hit,
it does not matter how you land a hit, was it first autoattack hit, or it was additional proc from weapon/trinket,
it does not matter how many procs per minute you realy land ,
every of it would have 40.8 % chance;
another important thing is that chance of proc is fixed on the item base attack speed and calculated before applying attack speed modifiers;
you wont get a penalty on chance if you have any of attack speed mods (counterweight, enchants, trinkets) ;
you still have a chance based on item wep base speed ;
Not to derail this thread, but I’d like to point out that there’s a reason for the whole “rush” to clear content…
For me at least, it’s not about the epeen race for “world first” (15 years later)… But rather because gear doesn’t rain from the skies in vanilla… And the sooner I’m clearing it, the sooner the rng gods might bless me with the gear to ever more efficiently run around caving people’s faces in… Saying “I got X raid down before the next content bucket” to me would be entirely worthless… The race is to get my gear so I can ever more efficiently kill everyone else.
Bringing things back around to this specific topic with that in mind, hybrid classes simply aren’t worth bringing to your raid, mathematically. If I was leading a raid, I’ll bring one shadow to debuff for the warlocks, and I’d personally be willing to make an exception for an ele shaman, because they are damn useful in a pvp group, so at least on one area they are worth it (my ultimate goal is being able to more efficiently murder people, gearing a strong pvp buddy can only help that) … But I’d never for a second consider a ret as they stood in vanilla… They simply don’t provide anywhere near enough vaunted utility to make up for their patheticly inept damage out put, and worse they steal quality 2handers from the best pvp class in game…meaning they not only hurt your pve raid makeup, but also hurt your pvp grouping by keeping gear out of the hands of more deserving specs (and that’s before addressing that the ret himself might want to waste a slot in the pvp group.)
Now I have nothing personal against hybrids… Hell I plan on having an alt enhancement shaman, and my tbc era ret main is one of my favorite characters historically, so I even have a soft spot for ret in particular (and also have even proposed trying to find ways to buff those specific dps hybrids’ damage or utility in ways that improve them in pve without breaking them in pvp) … None of that, however, means I’d want to have to carry a ret or enhancement shaman (which is even worse in pve) in a vanilla raid guild as they are /where in 1.12… They simply aren’t worth bringing, and it’s unfair to make everyone else work harder because they wanted to be a useless snowflake… It’s not nice, and it’s obviously not going to make for a good experience for the people who get left behind… but it’s also not personal to want a raid that performs more efficiently. Maybe that 300 dps isn’t going to make or break a fight on its own, but it does add up over time… Maybe you bring 5 sub optimal players and now you’re down 1500 dps… Before your fights even start you’re effectively down a player and a half… Now say your top dps does something stupid on this particular pull and you just lost 1100 more. Maybe you have the dps to carry your best dpser dying to something stupid, and maybe you don’t, maybe you would have had the dps if you weren’t already effectively playing down 1.5 dps before the fight even started by letting multiple weaker specs in… The point is that your margin for success gets a whole lot slimmer the more and more you start compromising and sacrificing… And raid leaders tend to be pretty firmly against undercutting themselves if they want to succeed through the raid progression.
Finally I’d also point out that the primary method of guild recruitment for the latter raids is outright poaching from lesser guilds, since you don’t want to waste time gearing people up hoping rng is kind. This is where the wheat really starts getting filtered from the chaff, and your hybrids, if they where able to get raid guilds at all, really lose out. Their guilds are more willing to compromise on performance which makes them less progressed on average… Which makes them more likely to get their best players /classes poached away to superior guilds, which further leaves them behind the curve, until it snowballs into a guild that can’t possibly do any progressing because it’s too busy trying to constantly gear up people that just keep jumping ship for a better guild.