Ret paladin viability

[Theloras-llane (Theloras)]

then that is quite literally the most useless spec in the entire game…

[Theloras-llane (Theloras)]

PS I even linked raid logs in this very thread - let’s see if he can find it!

[Sabetha-turalyon (Sabetha)]

The overall damage is higher than that of Bloodthirst until you’re at really high Attack Power levels.

MS is overall a pretty good ability. It’s just that, like Theloras noted, you’d be kicked for wasting a debuff slot on Mortal Strike.

Anybody who really wants to be a 2-handed Warrior is better off using a Slam build for raiding.

[Bynx-baelgun]

No you didnt, seriously post logs or be quiet.

[Loial-shadowsong (Loial)]

Mortal Strike was insanely good for the first few weeks during AQ40 during Bug Trio and Viscidus as the devour and gather both were affected by MS. But they patched that out.

I’ve seen some casual guilds with MS Warriors for the healers on Sulfuron as well, but they realized their folly and spread the adds out more. Same thing with Majordomo.

Also, the goal posts being moved by people in this thread…somebody post the ceiling is the roof Michael Jordan meme.

[Bynx-baelgun]

Quite comical you resort to such antics when someone finally asks you for definitive data and not your training dummy testing on a private server.

You have yet to post a single raid log and the fact you have no idea what a raid log actually is, is almost comical within itself.

You can write a guide you obviously spent a very long time on but can’t take a few minutes to directly post data? Youtube and wikipedia won’t save you now. You make others who actually work hard at subpar spec’s like ret bad.

[Blaîr-sargeras]

Lmao you sound like my old raid leader from wotlk “I don’t know how we continue to wipe on this boss, if there were 39 other me’s I’d one shot every boss.”

The same guy also said in a 5’s match to a priest. At 2700 mmr “Do you know what dispel is? I’ve dispelled every single serpent sting in the last 5 games.” We all stayed quiet for a minute then some said you realize priests can’t dispel poisons right?

-Sinclaire - Torch-

[Darjuul-wyrmrest-accord]

Ah, but they go into it looking to bring their guild down for their own selfish reasons. That’s the only outcome of being a ret and wanting a slot. You know you’re a liability and dead weight compared to what you could be simply because “muh feels!”

That’s completely false and you know it. Or are only the people playing “OP” classes truly being altruistic? What a joke.

We’re not talking about the incompetent people here. We’re not talking about allowing a tryhard ret in because he’s just as good as the half-scrub raid you have put together and you might as well bring enthusiasm. We’re talking about a full group of competent people and how you justify letting in weakness when there are plenty of other equally competent, dedicated, and tryhard people on more powerful things that can bring more to the table innately.

I justify “letting in weakness” because letting a Ret in isn’t weakness. Problem solved!

Again, you’re not doing apples to apples. The assumption is that everyone of the 40 people in the group are tryhard, good players. Go from that point.

It looks like you didn’t read my previous post. I’m not going from that point, because the point isn’t the top 5% of all raiding guilds. It’s just raiding guilds at all. “Akaidian’s raid rules” don’t apply to the vast majority of people and the vast majority of guilds. If you want to be at the very top then good for you, but in general you don’t have to min-max so hard that you turn good people away.

A rogue could be half as good as the ret and deliver the same results. Avoiding mechanics in vanilla is easy.

Rogues can cleanse, and rez, and buff? They can use a Nightfall and resistance auras? They can throw out a clutch LoH too? Wow, I never knew rogues were so good! Especially a mediocre at best rogue player, they sure are rare and an EXCELLENT addition to groups and raids!

Good lord, you’ve lived too long in the echo chamber of your own empty head.

[Dontlosmeßro-illidan]

lol Arms Warrior in Vanilla PvE DOES NOT EXIST…

And why is that?

Cause Mortal Strike takes up a debuff slot even though it is a completely USELESS DEBUFF IN PVE.

2H Fury with Nightfall maxes out at 900 DPS on PW in BiS forever gear compared to dual-wield Fury Warriors doing 1500-1800 DPS with double KT 1Handers.

How do I know all of this?

Cause we actually ran tests to verify every class/spec that could swing Nightfall.

Got any more “lol logic” to share?

The only people arguing that rets arent that bad are the people who want to play ret in classic.

Everyone who was serious in vanilla pvp or pve knows RET was dog sh$t. Rets didn’t blow sh$t up in pvp but scrubs.

A shockadin on the other hand, that stuff was just grosss. Shockadin would slap you around pretty easily

Yes we all know warriors are god status pvp/pve in 1.12

[Dontlosmeßro-illidan]

We didn’t know better, they were token members who were tolerated for one reason or another, and most guilds had wastes of space players. We’re armed to the teeth with more info now and raids in vanilla will function much like m+ groups excluding people with “low IO” (in the case of vanilla, it will be ilvl and spec hatred).

There will be a few guilds that don’t adhere to that, sure, but it won’t be the majority of the achieving guilds.

Make no mistake, live mentality will flood vanilla.

Also, why it matters, despite vanilla being static… Once the good competent people form up and shoot ahead, how many of them do you think will look back after farming something? If all the talent is gone, you’re just left with scrubs who will wipe 100 times on a single boss. Who can put up with that headache? I’d slit my wrists having to deal with that incompetence. Constant failure is the definition of a bad time for me.

This may be toxic asf but it is absolutely true.

You will get shunned A LOT for trying to raid as ret when you could go holy.

Argue all you want but this is a fact and i’ll come back here once classic goes live and we can continue the discussion.

For the record I think people should play whatever they enjoy but trash is trash and you have to deal with it like all the BM hunters are in BFA right now.

We raided with a ret in vanilla because he was a IRL friend and 100% dependable and he also spent a lot of extra time farming stuff for guildies. But his DPS as Ret was trash and he was technically a spot we could have filled with some OP dps. He was however ridiculous on a hunter in pvp but we still let him raid as ret as we had to many hunters in guild.

[Loial-shadowsong (Loial)]

There are so many bosses later on where Ret is actually super useful. Nefarian it shines, Fankriss, Twin Emps, Cthun, Anubrekhan, Faerlina, Maexxna, Noth, Gothik. All of these bosses inevitably have add duty where Warriors never get their full rotation in (except Faerlina) and things need to be bursted quickly. There were so many instances where people needed to be bursted out of web sprays on Maexxna and I’d SoC string and they’d be out before anyone else got there. Or on Noth I’d Exorcism adds as soon as they spawned so Warriors didn’t have to intercept peel Healers getting heal aggro and promptly die to a random skelebro.

For all the hate and all the lack of sustained DPS over an ideal setting coordinated DPS race, there were countless instances I was invaluable to the raid. Having Righteous Fury up and Exorcism + Judging an add on Noth - “nice job Base, keep those pulled into melee so we can cleave.”

Yeah. My DPS wasn’t God tier and I wasn’t parsing with the universal best, but to suggest I was unviable or unwanted in any way is just obtuse.

Move the goal posts and talk min max and talk best of the best of the best and I’ll continue to talk about how it’s perfectly fine and most guilds are going to take good people with ability.

At the end of the day guilds want good players. Not just good classes.

[Akaidian-earthen-ring (Akaidian)]

That’s completely false and you know it. Or are only the people playing “OP” classes truly being altruistic? What a joke.

No, they aren’t being altruistic, but they can play knowing full well they aren’t hindering the theoretical performance of the raid just because they want to play some scrub spec. You will always be a “this raid could have been better off with someone of my skill on a better spec” if you’re ret. I can’t live like that, and I can’t accept people who want to.

I justify “letting in weakness” because letting a Ret in isn’t weakness. Problem solved!

Markedly false

If you want to be at the very top then good for you, but in general you don’t have to min-max so hard that you turn good people away.

If by very top, you mean “has raid on farm and everyone has all the gear they could possibly want before next raid tier comes out” then sure. Otherwise, that’s basically my definition for “competent.”

If you start accepting sub-par performance from a ret, how do you justify not having warm bodies? “Oh jimmy only does 300 dps, but that’s 100% of what he can possibly do! Sorry bob, even though you do 450 dps, that’s only 50% of what a good rogue can do, so you’re benched and jimmy gets your spot.” Lolno. You start making those kinds of concessions, it’s a slippery slope to scrubsville, though it sounds like you’re already content with scrubsville based on your “majority of raids” comment. Hint: majority of raids will be complete and utter TRASH not worth the time you’re wasting in them. Just like right now.

Rogues can cleanse, and rez, and buff?

None of that stuff matters. We intentionally wipe fights until we cleanly do mechanics and actually deserve to win. No struggle busing where you make mistakes and people have to adjust on the fly. Do it right or start again.

Also, your holy pallies can more than handle any of that to the point where it no longer matters as well. If they can’t, they’re bad. DPS need not do anything but avoid mechanics and kill targets. Support do the support. Tanks do the tanking. That’s the best way for a raid to function.

[Akaidian-earthen-ring (Akaidian)]

At the end of the day guilds want good players. Not just good classes.

And there with be swathes of people who are both good players AND good classes, so there will be no reason to hinder yourself, unless you have some friend insistent or are in one of those guilds that can’t manage to field a full competent raid team of “good players on good specs.”

[Darjuul-wyrmrest-accord]

None of that stuff matters. We intentionally wipe fights until we cleanly do mechanics and actually deserve to win. No struggle busing where you make mistakes and people have to adjust on the fly. Do it right or start again.

And this right here is why no one here really cares what you think, honestly. Go struggle and be in that top 1% guild while other people are actually enjoying playing a game and not a spreadsheet. You don’t have to grind people’s souls into the dirt in order to succeed at WoW, so why bother doing so? Besides it makes you feel important, that is.

[Zeliek-moon-guard (Zeliek)]

None of that stuff matters. We intentionally wipe fights until we cleanly do mechanics and actually deserve to win. No struggle busing where you make mistakes and people have to adjust on the fly. Do it right or start again.

And this right here is why no one here really cares what you think, honestly. Go struggle and be in that top 1% guild while other people are actually enjoying playing a game and not a spreadsheet. You don’t have to grind people’s souls into the dirt in order to succeed at WoW, so why bother doing so? Besides it makes you feel important, that is.

If they intentionally wipe, doesn’t that just negate any benefit in the gain of time if the hybrid dps raids do them the first time even with a little struggling? Just seems like a waste of time trying to perform water polo if the goal is just to get to the other side of the pool…

[Akaidian-earthen-ring (Akaidian)]

The goal is to learn the fight and do it well. To perform it like a computer performs a process, so that when you come back in the future, you don’t have to worry about “will we kill it this time?” because people are still learning. Learn it once, learn it right, be a robot every clear after the first kill.

[Fateweaver-misha (Fateweaver)]

Learn it once, learn it right, be a robot every clear after the first kill.

It has nothing to do with being hardcore

[Zeliek-moon-guard (Zeliek)]

be a robot every clear after the first kill.

Not a whole lot of people find being a robot very fun.

[Akaidian-earthen-ring (Akaidian)]

obvious hyperbole is obvious, but the point is, you learn the fight correctly. Not hamfist your way through waiting for the stars to align getting lucky.

[Fateweaver-misha (Fateweaver)]

Not hamfist your way through waiting for the stars to align getting lucky.

It has nothing to do with being hardcore