Ret paladin viability

[Blaîr-sargeras]

So are you saying that ring wrath of cenarius, would be BiS even for a deep ret paladin?

-Sinclaire -Torch-

[Theloras-llane (Theloras)]

yes for SoR/JoR + Nightfall setup or for 1h SoR Ret

[Zeliek-moon-guard (Zeliek)]

The thing is that unless something really weird is going on with Nightfall, then the math doesn’t really line up with what you’re saying.

If we assume a 10 minute(600 seconds) test:

• At 3.5 speed, the weapon will be swung 171 times
• For Paladins, this means 342 total chances to proc Nightfall using SoR
• For Hunters the global CD is 1.5 and I’ll add 0.25 for human reaction + lag so at 1.75 seconds that’s 171 + 342 = 513 total proc chances.

This means that the Hunter is getting 50% more chances to proc the weapon and on top of that, every time the Paladin gets a chance to proc it they’re using 2 proc chances at the same time.

The hunter’s proc chances are more spread out due to it being from Wing Clip spam, meaning that the Hunter should waste less procs than the Paladin and get more chances to proc it.

In order to make your numbers line up Nightfall would have to be doing something weird with its proc chance which, while not impossible, I would question where the private servers got that it should be doing that.

Your line of thinking is that proc chance = uptime. This is wrong. Hunters may have more chances to proc which does in fact show visibly in uptime; however, the effectiveness of each proc goes down as they refresh more often while the buff is already up. Taking that into account shows Theloras’ numbers’ relation to be fairly accurate if not the proc chance of Nightfall.

[Neimia-turalyon]

Your line of thinking is that proc chance = uptime. This is wrong. Hunters may have more chances to proc which does in fact show visibly in uptime; however, the effectiveness of each proc goes down as they refresh more often while the buff is already up. Taking that into account shows Theloras’ numbers’ relation to be fairly accurate if not the proc chance of Nightfall.

I also noted about how the Hunter’s proc chances were more spread out, leading to less wasted procs as the Paladin is rolling 2 chances with every swing.

There will be diminishing returns on just how effective getting more proc chances is, but the Hunter should still be winning by a decent margin.

Especially considering that proccing Nightfall while it’s already up at least gives some benefit of refreshing the buff, but if the Paladin procs it on both melee + SoR then one proc is fully wasted.

[Theloras-llane (Theloras)]

yes, very good point - the debuff has a 5 second duration but if a player procs it again during that 5 second window it isn’t calculated as another proc

what we used to calculate the debuff uptime was a super macro which ran a check every second to see if the debuff was on the target or not

if yes, it added +1 second to the total debuff uptime duration

if not, it did not add to the total debuff duration

similarly, if more than 1 player swings Nightfall on the same boss fight encounter, we are unable to determine who triggers the proc as the macro simply checks to see if the debuff is on the target or not

If you would like to test Nightfall debuff uptime yourself, these are the two macros you need (on top of the Super Macro addon):

Macro 1
/in 1+ /script for i=1,16 do local texture = UnitDebuff(“target”,i); if texture and texture == “Interface\Icons\Spell_Holy_ElunesGrace” then NfCount = NfCount + 1; DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(NfCount) end end

Macro 2
/script SM_INFRAME:Hide(); NfCount = 0

Use Macro 2 first to clear your chat frame, then use Macro 1 - at the end of the boss fight combat press Macro 2 again to stop counting then refresh your UI to clear it.

[Archeon-frostmourne (Archeon)]

Oh my god so many lies, contradiction and exposed i can barely contain it all rofl

You see, Holystrike had the full rank 13 updated Field Marshal set with loads of spell damage

I was marshal not rank 13, that means I only had 3/6… come on mate get your facts straight

Bonecrusher
Binds when picked up
Two-hand Mace
129 - 194 Damage Speed 3.00
(53.8 damage per second)
+30 Strength
Durability 100 / 100
Equip: [Improves your chance to get a critical strike by 1%.]

https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=34769&p=244404&hilit=smiter+weapon#p244404
by Theloras » Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:11 pm
got a 3.4 swing speed 2hander two weeks ago and a 3.5 swing speed weapon this past week

https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=34769&hilit=Ret+Pve+Tips%2FGuide
Ret Pve Tips/Guide
by Smiter » Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:55 am

and had only just upgraded to a MC 2hander - namely Obsidian Edged Blade.

Obsidian Edged Blade
Blade Binds when picked up.
Two-hand, Sword.
176 - 264 Damage, Speed 3.40
hmmm something here doesnt line up here… he was obviously not using bonecrusher when or before he posted this and was definitely not using it during that fight, what proof do have? thankfully you provided it so no point lieing now…

Similarly, not every guild allows a single Judgement of the Crusader, let alone JotC stacking for multiple debuffs.

Stocar wouldn’t allow double Ret (you and I) in The Council so I left

Wow managed to contradict yourself in the same sentence, not once did The Council ever stack JoCr, furthermore you werent kicked for being a second ret you were kicked because you whined about not being given gear in your first raid

Smiter uses every consumable available - he doesn’t slouch.

https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=34769&hilit=Ret+Pve+Tips%2FGuide

by Holystrike » Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:22 am
if you are using R1 SoCom or Consec you are skimping on mana consumables you should always use max rank,
also you only listed roids, not including scorpok salt, any raiding ret should have both as they are unique.
You should never use flask of distilled wisdom over supreme power, that is nerfing your dps output.
Also a ret should use of oil of immolation on relevant fights

And assessing your DPS in BWL; actually relevant content:
#13 Smiter 423384(196/s) 3.5%
Out of the raiding retribution paladins you come in 6th under Optilasgar, with the leading dps figures being 50% higher then your average
#1 Holystrike 299.8/s
#2 Dovane 242.6/s
#3 Miamie 236.4/s
#4 Krumbull 207.1/s
#5 Optilasgar 202.9/s
#6 Fluffydrake 193.4/s
#7 Tervel 177.7/s
#8 Morgrainne 134.0/s
You shouldnt try to boost your dps in irrelevant content through flasking where noone else is, I mean we dont even world buff for mc since we run it back on back with BWL, a comparison shows that there is only a 30 dps difference between you flasked and others unflasked.
your guide is lacking crucial elements and is recommending new rets skip on their consumables.

[Gimm-caelestrasz]

=======================================================================================

Double return (Enter) and then triple dash --- is a visible break.

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Like this.

[Zeliek-moon-guard (Zeliek)]

There will be diminishing returns on just how effective getting more proc chances is, but the Hunter should still be winning by a decent margin.

Especially considering that proccing Nightfall while it’s already up at least gives some benefit of refreshing the buff, but if the Paladin procs it on both melee + SoR then one proc is fully wasted.

The hunter is winning by a decent margin. However the odds of wasting a proc because it doubled up is very minute, but does contribute to the hunter’s supremacy on up time as they only double up every 21 seconds. The point that isn’t getting across is that because the paladin will proc less often, there is higher chances and room for full duration procs.

Hmm, putting it mathematically one can compare it to damage reduction in a way. If armor gave 1% reduction for every 100 armor, each point of armor would be more valuable than the last correct? Then we come to find out there is a breakpoint at 50% reduction where we suffer diminishing returns.

Using your example of 10 minutes, a hunter can swing 571 times with no lag and paladin swings 417 times. ~37% more chances to proc. Based on 2 ppm, double procs for paladins happen 1.37% of the time on average so 2 procs per 10 min are wasted from doubles and 17 procs per 80 min due to Judgement overlap. A hunter will have on average one double every 25 minutes.

Now, a hunter on average will have an average ~4.7 chances to proc within the 5 second debuff time. A paladin will have ~2.6. That’s 80% more likely to overlap while 67% of all procs that happen within that debuff time are less effective uptime gain than a paladin’s. Remember, they only get 37% more procs.

I think I rambled without concluding anything so I’ll simply say this, it’s just how it is and it’s time for me to go to bed.

[Williams-akama (Williams)]

Something you may not have considered is that hunters also have the BM talent tree.

I know this sounds odd, but considering that if you have a hunter running NF, then it makes sense to play BM so that the hunter can maximize his raid contributions since swinging NF would be a very large reduction in damage vs any range build.

BM is not care free in Vanilla raid because pet AI is kinda a pain, but with practice it works and would allow the hunter to both contribute and help the raid.

[Blaîr-sargeras]

The only issue with this is then they lose trueshot aura, which would be more overall raid dps then the hunter could achieve by himself regardless.

-Sinclaire -Torch-

[Zeliek-moon-guard (Zeliek)]

Pet dps is kind of small though. You are looking at something like 60-80 dps from the BM talents after buffs and that doesn’t scale from MC to Naxx.

[Zeliek-moon-guard (Zeliek)]

100 AP aura

5 party members and 1 pet 600 ap

42 dps from auto attacks without modifiers.

Even when you add in the extra attacks and other things, your contribution would be about the same going full BM instead as a Nightfall swinging hunter. The real advantage with going Marksman is the benefit to ranged dps. If you are swinging Nightfall you aren’t doing that.

[Blaîr-sargeras]

Wouldn’t the pet die quite a bit being in melee range tho with no way to pull it back if you’re also in melee range? maybe I am missing something here. on top of that for some reason I was thinking Trueshot aura gave 10% ap not just 100 oops.

-Sinclaire -Torch-

[Zeliek-moon-guard (Zeliek)]

TS aura was changed in TBC, I think. Any ways, since you are in melee yourself it should be easy to keep the pet by your side. If your healers are ignoring pets whose owners are properly controlling then they aren’t doing their job. This also reduces the effect TS aura has because a pet is dead.

[Theloras-llane (Theloras)]

no the only point of the Hunter is True Shot Aura as Blair pointed out - any Hunter that shows up without TSA is lulz

[Theloras-llane (Theloras)]

the best setup for Nightfall overall debuff uptime is:

1. Ret Paladin using SoR/JoR
2. Melee Hunter
3. Prot Warrior OT weaving Annihilator + Nightfall

With that setup all 3 players would combine to average 75-80% total debuff uptime overall - and if your guild stacks casters - is a HUGE DPS BOOST

[Zeliek-moon-guard (Zeliek)]

With that setup all 3 players would combine to average 75-80% total debuff uptime overall - and if your guild stacks casters - is a HUGE DPS BOOST

I hope they have enough warlocks to SS all those ignite mages

[Theloras-llane (Theloras)]

well don’t forget that ignite’s damage only gets assigned to 1 Mage though - even though the others refresh it

but yes, lots of Paladins to BoP him on cd as well as Limited Invulnerability Potions!

[Impreza-gorgonnash (Impreza)]

The consciousness of WoW players has changed as the game has changed.

Despite exaggerated recounts, there are a whole lot of top notch players who played specs that were mold breaking to stand out and play in a way that they enjoyed, even if it went against the grain.

That reality will likely be retold in Classic. Almost nothing was unviable. There were a lot of non-optimals but no one should let an arm-chair elitist tell them that they can’t play a spec that they want and enjoy. If it’s raiding, there’s 39 other people and Vanilla raiding was never so difficult that everyone was forced into optimal-only specs. Never happened, not even for the server firsts of that day and age. Death & Taxes is one guild I can think of off the top of my head that proved that repeatedly with off-spec players, maintaining bleeding edge raiding.

[Loial-shadowsong (Loial)]

Aye, I posted Ryujin in an earlier post. They also had a Shadow Priest well before 16 debuffs, 2 Ferals, and 2 Arcane Mages. I went to school with Xav for 2 years.