Ret paladin viability

This deserves it’s own comment. This is from user Alinor on Thottbot posted on 06/26/2006

Since I got this nice axe I did some research on how beneficial this thing is.

Since blizzard made meny weapon procs on per/minute basis I decided to test if increasing attack speed is in anyway beneficial to get more procs.

Here are the results with regular attacks, at the weapon speed that is 3.5

On the other hand I used Seal of Crusader this seal gives 40% attack speed increase. Here we go

The difference is obvious, SoC is gives about 40% more procs.

Now raid benefit. Based on the stats above while using SoC during 28.5mins I got 611 hits and 113 procs.
611/113=18.4% proc rate
Proc duration is 5sec, so 113*5=565sec Time debuff is on.
If fight is 28.4 mins and proc is on for 9.4 mins iit’s 30%.
All casters get 15% DPS boost for 30% of the time.

If we take a cast of 2.5sec then 565/2.5=226 casts can land in 28.4mins with this buff on. If frost bolt deals 800dmg then 226*15%of800=27120 more DPS in 28.4 mins from one mage.
But we all know that it looks nice here but in reality we will not be able to cast 100% of the time when the proc is on, not even 70% but we might hit around 50% or 40% of the procs, still 10,000 more DPS from single caster in 30mins is great.

I think this weapon is more beneficial for paladins because of SoC and statistic I got, but I might be wrong.

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Preach my brother!

and you’re missing my point: Your base is worthless because it has no link back to how Vanilla actually was.

Increasing or decreasing the proc rate will not alter the uptime of both Paladins and Hunters to an equal degree because of how they proc the weapon.

Your logs show that a single Hunter did 1/3 to 1/2 of your DPS. To claim that it is fact that all Hunters do that in melee is downright dishonest.

If Theloras is willing to accept a single comment from 2006 as evidence then I’d like to revisit Storm Gauntlets.

I showed him a video from 2006 of it not scaling with spell damage and he dismissed it as “we don’t know if that was PTR or not”.

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scroll up - two independent links from different patches - and we don’t know whether it was from a PTR or not - since we had multiple independent comments from TBC onwards that said the proc items did scale with spell dmg

and again, I posted video evidence.

but I guess evidence only applies when it backs up what you want it to be?

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I even went so far as to file GM tickets on but wasn’t able to get an answer:

it’s not like I didn’t try to get an answer straight from the source…

Of course a CS rep doesn’t know. They’re customer service, not the people who dig into old server code and database backups.

I originally asked a while ago in this thread where the proc rate of Nightfall comes from and you couldn’t provide an answer.

Luuni finally did so yes, 2 PPM is a decent place to start. It’s not irrefutable but it’s still Vanilla data.

I’m just pointing out some hypocrisy of yours here: You’re willing to accept a few wayward comments from back in the day because they agree with the outcome you want, but you refuse to accept video evidence because it doesn’t.

I’m sure if I put in a ticket about the proc rate of Nightfall in Vanilla I would get a “I’m sorry but I don’t know the answer” as well.

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try walking in my shoes and the sheer number of haters and trolls who have tried to break down everything that I tried to FIX on private servers

do you have any idea just how many people crapped on me for saying that you could get reck charges from using /sit or X when I posted this video?

How to be a Gankadin
Published on Aug 8, 2006

cuz they used this as their evidence -

> Can I sit down to force a crit and gain a charge?
> Charges will not generate off auto attacks or npc attacks by trying to sit down and force a crit. However, ability crits from physical abilities such as Sinister Strike, Hamstring, Auto-shot, Aimed shot, etc will generate a charge if you’re sitting.

never mind the fact that the actual guy who wrote that guide lo and behold said this last summer on these very classic forums:

Baconn<Reverends of Swagger>120 Human Paladin22760315 posts

Aug 28 (Edited)1

Got linked over to this post from I assume Theloras, and I can shed a little light on Reckoning. Some of the info from my 14 year old guide was a little out-of-date: IIRC when the sticky dropped I stopped updating the guide.

Normally if you’re sitting down you would not get Reckoning charges from auto-attacks. However, you could gain charges from random NPCs by constantly sitting and standing up due to server lag: mob would try to attack you as your were sitting, so it’d be a forced crit. However, if you stood up just as you were getting hit, the server would see you as if you were standing and get a Reckoning charge.

or all the haters who tried to get HOLY RESISTANCE actually exist on private servers…

Blazefury Medallion
Binds when picked up
+13 Agility
+14 Stamina
+12 Fire Resistance
Requires Level 60
Equip: Adds 2 fire damage to your melee attacks.
By Siralex on 02/04/2008 (Patch 2.3.3)
I have actually tested this necklace while on a PTR and noticed the fire damage increases by about 50% of your spell damage. I personally was getting 646 regular hits with it and 969 crits (untrinketed). This could possibly be a great item for casters in Arenas.

Storm Gauntlets
Binds when equipped
Hands Mail
218 Armor
+7 Intellect
+10 Fire Resistance
Durability 40 / 40
Requires Level 54
Equip: [Adds 3 Lightning damage to your melee attacks.]
Equip: [Increases damage done by Nature spells and effects by up to 21.]
By QFred on 09/10/2012 (Patch 3.1.3)
Back in the days, the damage from this proc was affected by crit chance and spell power. So it would do more than 3 damage on each attack, often. Plus, it had a quite awesome lightning sound and visual effect.

Fiery Plate Gauntlets
Binds when equipped
Hands Plate
379 Armor
+10 Fire Resistance
Durability 45 / 45
Requires Level 53
Equip: [Adds 4 fire damage to your weapon attack.]
By sasuci on 02/01/2010 (Patch 3.1.3)
The SP affect the 4dmg something around 30-50% of ur SP. My holy pala have them and are AWESOME!

so once again - irregardless of what Nightfall’s actual PPM proc rate ends up being once Classic launches…

here is the difference in personal DPS by a Melee Hunter vs a Retribution Paladin on Patchwerk:

21 Theoloras (107160)
449.9/s 2.7%
26 Bullmax (64839)
272.2/s 1.6%

18 Theoloras (139204)
453.8/s 3.5%
23 Bullmax (60991)
198.8/s 1.5%

A Melee Hunter ends up doing 1/3 to 1/2 DPS of what a Retribution Paladin can do.

Actually this is less reliable because your sample size is 1 Hunter and 1 Paladin, which is laughable.

Though on the topic of Nightfall I did some quick math assuming a 2 PPM(since we now have something suggesting that’s a decent number =P):

In a 10 minute span you’ll swing Nightfall 171 times. The proc rate of Nightfall has to be ~11.7% to make 171 hits in 10 minutes proc 20 times, or 2 PPM.

Paladins using SoR get another 171 chances, but it always comes at the same time you white hit.

That means Paladins get 40 total procs, and of this:

  • 1.36% of them will double proc, effectively wasting an entire proc. This means 2 procs in 10 minutes
  • After every proc you get another swing before the debuff ends, meaning there is a 22% chance of having a partially wasted proc. This means 8 partial procs.

With 8 partial procs, 2 wasted procs, and 30 full procs a Paladin over 10 minutes should have an up time on average of 29.67%.

For Hunters we’ll assume that Wing Clip can be used once every 2 seconds. This accounts for lag/human reaction time on top of the GCD.

That means they get 300 Wing Clips in 10 minutes. On top of the normal 20 procs from white hits, they get another 35 from Wing Clip.

Any given proc will be followed up by 2 additional Wing Clips for a 22% chance for a partial proc. These will be split between 2 second and 4 seconds depending on which Wing Clip procced.

This means 6 highly wasted procs(2 second duration), 6 partially wasted(4 seconds), and 43 full procs.

That’s an up time of 41.83%.

Granted certain buffs may shift those number around a bit but that’ll be the baseline of what each class should be averaging given calculated 2 PPM.

dude, get over yourself -those two raid parses were from a LIVE server - but we tested every single class/spec who could swing Nightfall on a test server against target dummies for extended periods multiple times

PS you forgot JUDGEMENT of Righteousness being able to trigger procs…

Yeah, you could, by mashing X and fooling the server into thinking you weren’t sitting by the time you were getting hit by the forced crit. The only way to get reck stacks off NPCs was by exploiting. We aren’t playing on 2004 hardware for Classic, no reason for that exploit to happen in Classic.

Did you even read the guy’s response that you posted yourself?

Not an exploit friend - Seal Twisting used the same server lag and Blizzard said it was “creative use of Game Mechanics”

Or are you calling every single Blood Elf Retribution Paladin who played during TBC bug abusers?

PS a Poster even said in the ORIGINAL vanilla forum post that it was possible:

Level 60 Human Paladin
13. Re: Guide to Reckoning V2 (Current 1.10) | 2:58:34 AM PDT
"sitting down DOES store a charge for reckoning from npc auto attacks
what you have to do is stand up right as they are about to connect and you will store a charge.
i used to run around orgrimmar and get charges off creeps and then unload on unwary clothie."

Get over what? Challenging that your math may not be perfect?

It sounds like you need to get over yourself. I’m not some hater from a private server who wants to accuse you of stuff, but neither will I accept things from private servers if there isn’t a good basis for doing so.

If we include JoR then the uptime for Paladins goes to 36%. It’s worth noting that Hunters can push their number higher too by being more reactive with Wing Clip. Assuming a 1.5s GCD + 0.5 second reaction/lag is VERY generous in favour of Paladins in 2019.

Even with haste enchants, there’s nothing there to claim that “an Alliance Hunter is going to have an upkeep with Nightfall somewhere around or slightly below Retribution Paladin.”

your assumption that we would base our end results on only one or two tests…

our results over multiple tests show the following results ON AVERAGE:

  1. Fury Warrior @ 50% uptime
  2. Melee Hunter @ 45% uptime
  3. Ret Paladin @ 40% uptime
  4. Prot Warrior @ 30% uptime (while weaving Annihilator as well)
  5. Enhancement Shaman @ 25% (lol Windfury doesn’t trigger procs)

THIS IS ALL STATED IN THE THREAD along with screenshots and breakdowns for gear, spec and overall test setup - because unlike you we actually ran the tests.

PS when the hell have I ever stated “an Alliance Hunter is going to have an upkeep with Nightfall somewhere around or slightly below Retribution Paladin”

Their PERSONAL DPS will be much lower than a Ret Paladin.

I work with what is given to me rather than assuming that the person is either competent or not at what they’re trying to do.

To be blunt I imagine even if I ran tests you’d dismiss it anyway, because you seem offended by the mere suggestion that you might have done something wrong. Every time I’ve come to you with evidence that you might not have been right about something, you find some excuse to dismiss it.

I’m not against you being right but I am against not verifying that, and am all for questioning if private servers that are half guesswork to begin with actually got things right too.

I literally copy pasted that from the you linked me to about Nightfall tests. I’m pointing out that there’s nothing to back up Keftenk’s claim of that.

This is like the 10th time I’ve reposted the Nightfall thread in this thread where all of our evidence and testing is laid out for all to see…

Keftenk may have said that at the very beginning of our testing parses, but I never did - in the future you would be well to post quotes to the appropriate person before laying accusations out.

To be clear, this is the full paragraph of what he wrote (again at the VERY BEGINNING of our test efforts):

“I am going to go out on a limb here and say that an Alliance Hunter is going to have an upkeep with Nightfall somewhere around or slightly below Retribution Paladin. They should realistically probably be pretty close. Again, Haste is the key here. Then abilities afterwards, which Seal of Righteousness from what I can tell is the most reliable in applying NF.” - Keftenk

TLDR - he is making a PREDICTION - not final test results.

Never mind the fact that he goes on to say this as well regarding his first round of test using a Ret Paladin with SoR/JoR:

Keftenk - Today at 2:34 PM
so, i actually just did a sor/jor 5-minute test. fairly good numbers
Keftenk - Today at 2:34 PM
68.33% upkeep
Keftenk - Today at 2:35 PM
but do note…this was a 5minute test
it could be skewed
Keftenk - Today at 2:35 PM
but i think it warrants an hr test
seeing a number like that

But I digress, as I think you are confusing total number of procs with EFFECTIVE DEBUFF UPTIME.

We do not count the sheer number of procs that any class/spec can achieve but rather their ability to maintain effective uptime for the debuff.

These are the two macros you need in order to do so (on top of the Super Macro addon):

Macro 1
/in 1+ /script for i=1,16 do local texture = UnitDebuff(“target”,i); if texture and texture == “Interface\Icons\Spell_Holy_ElunesGrace” then NfCount = NfCount + 1; DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(NfCount) end end

Macro 2
/script SM_INFRAME:Hide(); NfCount = 0

Use Macro 2 first to clear your chat frame, then use Macro 1 - at the end of the boss fight combat press Macro 2 again to stop counting then refresh your UI to clear it.
for example

see the count in the chat window

the macro checks every second

to see if spell vulnerability is on the target

it yes, it adds +1 to the count

if no, it doesn’t

so in that PW example

i was swinging nightfall using SoR/JoR along with a melee hunter

and combined we got 150 seconds of total debuff uptime
that was me solo nightfall swinging

and got 89 seconds of total debuff uptime

make sense?

It is not my first intent to get into a fight with you or anyone else - but if people misquote me, or say that I skew test results or worse yet go and spew outright lies, then of course I am going to defend myself.

But if you want to have a calm and rationale discussion then I am all ears - all I ask is that you look at ALL of the data before making any rash/final thoughts about our results as they are legit.

Yes, it is selfish to require or want someone to sacrifice for others. It’s the definition of it. Just being a part of a collective means that you take responsibility equally for any action. You might be thinking of altruism which is not the same thing.

What does a melee hunter bring besides maybe 30% more uptime than a paladin? Practically nothing. A paladin brings a lot of utility.

You seem confused no one is asking the ret to respec… people just aren’t going to bring the selfish clown who specs ret and wants others to carry dead weight because he wanted to be a snowflake.

Your mental gymnastics to justify one dude holding 39 other people back and then call the 39 other people out for being the selfish ones is absurd to the maximum degree.