Ret being too overpowered is not something that ever occurred in ICC. They were around 5th or 6th place at their peak. Even with Shadowmourne, a Ret Paladin’s personal dps will still be less than a Fury Warrior without it, for comparison’s sake.
Also, Seal of Vengeance doesn’t have anything to do with T9 set. You’re mixing it up with Rigtheous Vengeance. But Seal of Vengeance DoT damage is another knob they could tune, since increasing it wouldn’t exacerbate any worries about Ret PvP damage becoming too strong.
The reason I bring up adjusting the passive damage buffs from Ret’s talents is because those are easier to tune than set bonuses or completely changing or adding abilities. Like, if for some reason they adjust Vengeance to 15% and find that suddenly Ret is the new UH DK, they can tune it back down to 12% or whatever.
Sure but Fury is Warriors only competitive raid spec. It’s why people brought them to a raid and if their DPS never got compelling their option would be to roll a different class. This is not the case with Pally’s. They’re a support class with two top tier specs and one support spec that ends up doing okay.
With Warriors if the only way they could get into a top tier raid was to eventually at the end of the game do okay dps that would not be very fair would it? So yeah, by icc they are an S tier dps class - that’s all they get invited to raids for.
Now the Ret issue is different. They want to raid as a dpser and by ICC do enough dps that they may get to do so but if they can’t they are highly in demand as Tanks and Healers in their other spec options. Now you may have chosen a hybrid class to do only the one thing that class is weakest at but that’s kind of a you problem. I don’t see why you should get buffs over a class like Warrior that is weak in all of their permutations currently and for the most part are only average at anything until the very end where one spec becomes top tier at one thing.
Now - the T8 buff is great for Warriors, because of the ArPen buff mostly. So, yes it’s a buff. And why not? We are useless at everything but speed runs until that. Speed runs only become a thing once content is on farm.
Ret is not a class it’s a spec. Warrior is a class. How’s this - If we get a Tanking survivability buff Ret can have a DPS buff? It sucks being bottom but Ret comes back to be pretty good with the set bonus, you don’t need 3 ‘S’ tier specs. It’s not World of Pally Craft.
Pallys are around 20% of the player base currently and Warriors around 8%. I don’t think Pally buffs should be the first action item for Blizzard. It kind of blows my mind that Pallys are pushing to be first in line for a buff …
Ret should be crying and for good reason, it’s been neglected over and over again. Wrath was a great expansion for Ret but like many people have pointed out here it’s suffering from last patch blues with all the nerfs it got in Wrath added together. We had Seal of the Martyr/Blood to carry us through the game before ICC and it’s completely removed in that patch.
Also while that is WoD, Legion, and BFA, it’s not like it was any better for the spec in Mists and Cata. Always suffering.
If you want the source of the picture.
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cataclysm guts ret of the ability to cleanse itself,removes seal of vengance and seal of command and Removes art of war for Holy Power zzzz.
Why are you posting data that has no relevance? Who cares about future expansions.
You mainly seem to pop into these topics about Ret to say “what about Warriors?”
If you think Warriors should get balance tuning, go ahead and make a topic advocating for it. We’re not going to begrudge you advocating your class, stop holding it against us.
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This is true. I am advocating a Warrior centric perspective.
I don’t actually want buffs. But these things are relative. 6k DPS is great … unless everyone else is doing 8k dps. The Warrior claim to a raid spot and loot prio is already weak and if Pallys get a buff to DPS it will be even weaker. We compete for the same loot and same raid spots. It’s one of 3 raid spots you can have - it’s out only one. Sure we can tank if the content if on farm but then who cares.
A buff to Ret is a relative nerf to Fury and to Warriors as a class. I get it though and respect you fighting your corner. I get that you probably see the Ulduar ilvl buff as an indirect nerf to Ret for the same reasons. it is. But given you already have high raid participation with two other s tier specs, I think it’s fair.
if Ret gets a dps buff then Fury should definitely get one too.
Well they probably won’t stop with Wrath Classic, and it shows the future of the spec. If you want to take a look at the past we can do that too. Dead last in Vanilla for every tier of content, BC mostly just middle of the pack, most the time spent below, never breaks top 5. Now Wrath Classic, bottom 5 DPS.
Future data sure seems to match up with the current data, almost like the spec has been made to suffer almost its entire existence. I’m not sure if it actually has ever been the #1 DPS, while most other classes have been.
Idk has ret Ever been #1 ive seen a graph around where it shows the the time above avg and across 3 or 4 expacs pallys were sub 2% xd warlocks were almost 100%.but cata ret will be even worse. Dont make the same mistake again ret is dead all hail uh dk.
This just isn’t true, Warriors scale infinitely better with gear moving into Ulduar, ToGC, and ICC. Ret does not get better until we get Shadowmourne and 4p from ICC. Buffing Ret does not “nerf” Warrior.
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I guarantee these guys were destroying people in prepatch then started complaining because they couldn’t face roll arenas/BGs.
I main a Ret and DPS warr (arms currently)
This concept doesn’t make any sense. Making Ret slightly more competitive doesn’t nerf warriors at all.
Saying there is more competition for gear also isn’t really accurate because most raids will still balance around having a certain number of melee. The only difference is will it be a Ret, DK or Warrior so your competition isn’t changing on gear. If they go Warr or DK your competition will be worse than if they went Ret.
Overall I don’t feel bad for warriors being weak right now as I do Rets. Warriors have always been weak in phase 1 of the expacs and become good in the middle and top tier at the end. The same holds true for WOTLK.
Rets on the other hand right now are below fury warriors. And this is with the fact that many bosses are UD. The gap between Rets and other dps classes doesn’t narrow in Ulduar like it does for warriors. It just widens and widens until ICC. I very much expect a lot of rets to be benched in any higher level guild.
I think its too late to buff warriors since the Ulduar changes already will buff them.
I think Rets on the other hand should probably have a mild tuning to keep them from being put on a shelf for the next like 8 months. I think there have been some good suggestions in the discussions already like moving adjusting the T8 set bonus or reverting some of the changes to Crusader Strike or Divine Storm.
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Again - Warrior is a class, Ret is a spec. With Warriors we’re not talking about one of our raid specs we’re talking about all of them. With Ret we are talking of one spec of three.
In the past this was made up for by Warriors having the go to Tank spec for early phase and prog…
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Infinitely?
Not just you but I’m convinced this is the case generally that most people talking about scaling don’t know how it works. It’s not uniform for a start. How a spec scales is based around how well the gear of a given tier is itemised, special items, tier bonusses that change the relative power weightings of various abilities.
Warriors don’t scale “infinitely” or even in a universal sense better. They scale very well with some key stats and not with others. And where the phase is itemized for the stats they scale well with they do exceptionally well. Armor pen being the most well known stat for this.
Pally’s have a tier bonus in ICC that shifts the balance of how they scale. The bonus allows them to scale exceptionally well in that tier. For Warriors it was also ICC - due to Arp and some key items that accentuate it.
Warriors have pretty weak tier bonuses in Ulduar and Nax (especially Ulduar). Tier bonuses, at their most effective, often act as multipliers for key stat and ability scaling. That will impact on our relative strength as well. Having ineffective set bonuses is not a trivial thing.
There are a lot of assumptions being made around Warriors and our supposed “infinite scaling” which are in my view overstated. In ICC we scale exceptionally well but this is due to having very strong tier bonuses and optimal itemization options. That is not all present before ICC.
This thread made me realize how little people understand armor penetration and its scaling.
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One thing people don’t get is that it has increasing returns as you approach cap. So you don’t just stack it and away you go, you need to have a lot of it available to you before it’s worth it. Additionally, if the rest of your stats and base damage is low then it’s not going to do much for you there either.
So, for physical damage classes the ramp up is slow to start and then as you enter ICC you start to really shoot ahead with lots of stats and base damage while hitting ArpCap.
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paladins getting a slight buff does not affect warriors in any way lmao where do you come up with this lmao.
It’s pretty obvious warriors deserve something too but that’s for top level or big brain warriors to discuss.
no this is classic not retail, deal with the 3.3.5 or play another game. It’s insanely cringe
Atleast you are outright owning up to being self centered now lol
That’s progress
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