Exactly, ret is never in a position when they are just flat out not bought to raids apart from in those server first clear guilds. There are plenty of specs that just won’t get bought along to raids in general even if they do more dmg than ret because they don’t provide anything else. Paladins can play all 3 specs and find a spot easily in wotlk throughout the entire expansion, the same can’t be said for almost every other class.
Ret paladins play ret because they like both paladin and dps. Why would they ever go holy and prot and most guilds already have those positions filled. And since higher guilds don’t want to run ret paladins do they have to go lower quality guilds that are desperate to fill and not able to clear hardmodes. So yes buff ret paladins.
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only difference is by the time this should happen it will be around 264 base ilvl for the mage. and even then i knew plenty of mages who stayed arc because they preferred arcane. this argument rather silly. i could be wrong on the gear scaling for fire. but i know they need a lot of gear that isn’t readily available in ulduar to beat arcane if i’m not mistaken.
Have them transfer to Pagle Alliance. I need Hpals.
Had 4 Rets in my VOA (Guild fun run) and I couldn’t pay them to take 213 Holy Paladin Tier Gloves off of me.
You can’t help the helpless.
You got a source for that? All the sims show Warriors remaining firmly in the bottom half of the pack. We improve a little - like one or maybe two positions. Unlike Ret we have way less other reasons to be included in a raid group. Unless you’re in a casual guild and or are friendly with the gm you will struggle to get a raid spot this tier as any spec of warrior, much more so than Paladins, and probably more than Ret given how many Pallies are needed for an optimal group.
The ability to get to ArP soft cap by the end of the phase is good but doesn’t give us the super duper scaling advantage you seem to think. Not mathematically and I’m willing to wager not in practice in my view.
It’s an improvement yes but not a huge one. And it only happens once we’re fully decked out in Hard mode gear - most Warriors won’t get hard mode gear because bringing them for prog on HMs is a liability.
If the Pally class were in the same state as the Warrior class is going into Ulduar the tears would break the internet.
Edit: Again - I’m not asking for Warrior buffs. We’ll come good in ICC (like Ret) and that’s fine - we expected that. But I’m offering a little perspective on the misinformation about how strong Warriors will be in Ulduar. We’ll be probably three slots above Ret as Fury, one spot as Arms.
Personally I’m against Blizzard making balance changes in classic - it’s too slippery a slope. We just need to suck it up and play it the way it is - and I appreciate that this is not necessarily the way it was. It’s a remake of an old beaten game, it’s not a flag ship product. Blizzard aren’t going to spend the resources on doing class and spec balance monitoring and fixes right so I’d rather them not do it at all.
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And this is where I stopped caring about what you said. Fury brings a buff that’s only brought by them or Feral. Ret doesn’t bring anything that a stronger more desired spec doesn’t bring: 3% Damage from Arcane(especially now with Fire being gutted), 3% Haste from Boomkin, Greater Might/3% Crit from the Prot Paladin. If you’re suggesting that Ret “brings a 20% damage reduction” like half the other idiots that don’t play Ret, we lose 12% damage to get to that 20% damage reduction, which puts us at 1/3rd the Damage of Warlocks and Rogues over a 3 minute encounter.
Feral will do significantly more dps than Fury, plus have other utility such as battle rez. Keep in mind I’m also not just talking about Fury, I’m talking about the Warrior class. Every role we do almost every other class does much better in this tier. The only utility we bring as a whole class that is unique is Commanding shout.
I maintain - if your class - Paladin - were in the same state as the Warrior class is the internet would break due to your tears. It’s simply a liability to bring a Warrior of any stripe to Hardmode Ulduar.
Ret does weak dps - I don’t dispute that. But your claims that Warriors are soo much better off because of our scaling in Ulduar is wrong. Your claim that we have more desirable utility than Paladins or even just Ret is also wrong.
A typical raid will want 4 paladins for the full array of blessings and auras. 4 Pally Tanks and healers means you miss out on other valuable utility from other Tank and Healer specs, so there’s going to be a very good chance that most raid leaders will see value in taking a Ret - just for that. Maybe a Fury will get a spot for Commanding shout but it’s not really enough. In the best case scenario Warriors (the class) are at most equal to Ret (the spec) in terms of raid desirability. You may get one Warrior in a typical HM raid group - maybe. And you can see that play out in PTR too - most raids brought a Ret (at least the ones on warcraft logs), and hardly any brought a Warrior (of any spec). I’m not complaining but rather refuting your claim that Ret is a special case that’s worse off than {take your pick of any Warrior spec}.
You’re wrong, about Warriors (the class) being better off than Ret (the spec).
Doesn’t really affect me though - I knew this was coming and as I’m in a casual guild I’m resigned to probably not clearing many of the hard modes - at least early on. I’ll use ToC for catchup gear and pump in ICC.
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show me where they get all that arp to get arp cap at with out trinket procs. you can’t. they can start stacking arp if they DBW from the 4th boss in ICC. PS MM hunters will be alive and thriving by that point further more you got Frost DKs, UHDKs, Combat Rogues and Feral DPS that want that trinket. right now there is no way for fury or mm hunters to hit arp cap. especially with out epic level gems.
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Ill take a 90% parsing ret over every other average player playing any other class. I say that only because i raid with a very good ret pally and they out dps all the fotm players jus by being a good player. Take the player not the class.
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Pretty much this. Warriors are waiting on a trinket that drops in ICC to make them properly viable and Ret is waiting on an ICC tier bonus, pretty similar predicament I would say. In both cases we just need to bide our time. We get a chance to shine.
It’s a pandora’s box though if Bliz start meddling with spec balance. They won’t put the resources in to do it properly and it will likely come down to who whinges the loudest. I can see a case for nerfing exploitative game play but that’s about it.
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Ret needs a buff but what we really need is an active Dev team, basically non existent 1 post per month bs. We need a Dev team that creates a Wrath experience to cater what the community wants. We literally have the dullest dead worthless workers for the classic Dev team that don’t give a f. We are paying for the worst version of Wrath that is worse than the original and all pservers version of Wrath.
it also becomes even easier with STS from RS 25.
The tier bonus ret is waiting on isn’t going to help.
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they’ll be crying either way. i say ignore them hard.
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If we are looking to replace people on what they can and can’t bring, I’d bring a Destruction Warlock for a ghetto Commanding Shout and replenishment for the arcane to fire rerollers.
But on topic Ret is doing fine. If they get buffed they’ll be right back here complaining. We will all be here complaining. Shout out to the Warriors for continuing to push forward, despite the mess they’re in. Warriors are the MVP’s for playing what they love. Respect.
Guild doesn’t want a ret? Find a new guild. My server can’t be the only one with 5,000 guilds trying to fill a few more spots for Ulduar.
Pagle Alliance Rets-HMU if you need a guild to carry you in Ulduar, I got spots for reliable raiders in multiple 25M’s. SAT/SUN 8-11 EST. 
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BM Hunter Frost mage and Sub rogue deserves to be higher DPS than Ret pld!
I’ve had similar thoughts about warrs being awful while ret is doing all this complaining. Both warr dps specs suck and have their buffs covered by other, better classes (though feral isn’t good either). But I haven’t seen much complaining from warrs about the class performance.
I raid with a really good ret pally and my meter doesn’t extend down far enough to see him or the warrs 
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Not a thing anymore because Fire got gutted every Mage is still going to be Arcane
Just because a guild is LOOKING for players doesn’t mean they’re going to TAKE bottom barrel DPS
no buffs. no tuning, no changes no tier changes leave them as is.