I picture a paladin of a defender of light, righteous fury focused on essentially smiting down evil.
But currently the way the class is built seems more to me about AoE than single-target which does not match my class fantasy.
Some classes are able to do AoE damage with their single target buttons, and while there are some talents that do that, it doesn’t include the main damage – Templar’s/Final Verdict.
This may be a hot take, but I think divine storm should not be something that a ret actually presses in the “good” build unless the pull is massive. To me it seems like something that procs instead.
Additionally, as a cool thematic means of aoe, I think ret should instead pulse radiant/holy damage while doing single target as a means of AoE or perhaps through talents instead the target radiates out this holy/radiant damage
In M+, I think ret would fit much better into the fire mage damage profile where overall damage is more concentrated into one target, and is perhaps lower than pure AoE specs but higher damage to bosses/priority mobs/mini-bosses.
Thematically it seems strange to switch to the AoE rotation on 2 mobs for a paladin
When there are swarming undead there is usually a boss like a lich or as you say demon. Usually there are not a bunch of low-level undead wandering around without a master.
It seems silly that the paladin would be spinning around killing the masses of undead instead of facing off against the lich like a real hero. IMO
EDIT: As far as actual in-game concrete gameplay goes, Waycrest Manor is a good example. The way most tanks pull, there are 1-2 witches along with a bunch of less-dangerous trash. A fire mage would probably target the witches, matron, steward and cast pyroblast pack to pack. Ret will look fantastic on the meters doing divine storm for these pulls but I don’t feel like that’s very thematic.
I do think there is a place for divine storm, when there are really big pulls. And sure, they can be undead. But we don’t see that very often – perhaps next season in Nokhud
I really don’t see where you’re pulling this data. Was there some poll or data that you’re referencing? In my circles people don’t want to bring ret because we have to switch between divine storm and final verdict. I actually don’t know a single ret player who likes that we have to switch buttons for AoE vs ST and know plenty who don’t like it.
Further, we are one of the specs that have to specifically spec into single target vs AoE and can’t really be good at one while still being good at the other. I have never seen anyone say this is a good thing so I’m really curious where you’re getting your data
This is a good thing. I hope you are correct here but only time will tell.
Funny how we’ve had entirely separate experiences. But, as I wrote above, I’m not suggesting that it is disposed of here, but rather that it not be the ONLY option for AoE. Much like how the current mage build does not use flame patch (for flamestrike) and they instead do pyroblast and spread ignite. I think this, thematically, makes much more sense for a ret.
TBH I don’t think you’re realizing that you are arguing against your own best interest in fear of change.
I’m asking for CHOICE in HOW we do AoE.
I think take the ignite mechanism from mages, plain and simple! This would be so much cooler, if we could do increasing radiant damage from final verdict.
Swinging a blade wildly in circles is a Warrior’s job!
That was the old animation. Current DS we conjure a hammer storm around us by pointing our weapon at the sky, what more paladin flavor you want than that??
You’re asking for a complete overhaul just because you don’t like the animation of DS
Also we have plenty more aoe options in TWW without losing too much ST that are very paladin in flavor.
I’m actually both not asking for a complete overhaul, nor is it because of the animation.
Huh? looking at video 20 years ago is relevant, how? What’s it going to tell me? I think you’re missing half of the logic here. The animation itself is not at all what I’m talking about, I’m talking about function.
To be specific, I’ve noticed that most damage specs work differently than ret where the finisher will spread out damage to additional targets. That was in my OP, and that hasn’t changed. Obviously the animation would follow that, but your determination that it is the animation that bothers me is completely wrong.
Likewise, sure the character model does not spin, but the hammers do. The function is the important part.
If you’re just getting KSM/KSH and calling it a day I doubt you would ever encounter this issue. But in bigger keys rets are known padders. The only reason ret is being brought right now is the insane amount of damage possible but to do this ret had to be far far and above the rest of specs for it to be worth it.
Normally, when more balanced, much of ret’s damage is “pad”
So, this is exactly the issue that I’m asking them to address head-on.
It sounds like you agree with me but still want to play devils advocate.
Alpha videos make more sense!
Most classes, particularly the “good” M+ classes, do their AoE as a part of their single target rotation with a small change. This is why rogues and mages tend to almost always have a spec in the meta. It’s what makes spriest so good right now too.
I think they actually tried to do this a bit previously with the ret rework from 10.0.7 but they added AOE to builders. Now, having a bunch of judgements go out is a cool function.
Most of these classes have multiple avenues to do AoE. They can in effect sacrifice some AoE, but still do good AoE, while still doing their single target rotation via talent choices.
Since I’ve used them as an example before, lets take fire mages and flame patch/flamestrike. If they want to do a heavy aoe build they can but they still do decent damage with pyroblast and still keep a ton of their single target. You seem to agree with me here that rets suffer from this:
So again, this is exactly the core of my OP. THIS is what I’m asking to be fixed, not some animation.
I guess it’s confusing for people that I provided a specific example of how I’d like to see this problem fixed. This is a problem in these forums … if you don’t provide a solution people jump on you for that, but if you do then it confuses people.
I have my own idea for a solution but there are plenty of ways that this could be done.
Yes but maybe I’m missing something. What change causes the Templar’s Verdict/Final Verdict to do AoE damage?
Vanguard of Justice still requires changing the spender based on targets. Final Reckoning still requires using divine storm to do AoE despite giving a larger single-target buff. But you still have to use the single-target spender. And that’s at the expense of execution sentence being less powerful. None of these are meaningful enough changes to the damage profile to fix the issue, though the final reckoning change is kinda neat. It still won’t work in AoE situations as I describe, though.
You are, in essence, pointing to evidence that doesn’t back up your claim while yet you still say you agree with me. Confusing!
The talent profile is changing and certain spell tunning so that we’re not stuck doing abysmal AOE or st DMG…blizz specifically commented on this last week in a blue pos.
Having a designated ST and AoE spender is not a bad thing if designed right.
Seems like you just want one spender and that’s it? If so, why? That’s just boring
1 of the biggest offender in ST and AoE build being so far off of each others specialty is packed into FR and ES choice node.
By nerfing both they effectively reduced that gap.
But that’s not all.
Templar Strike being made better effectively means that you don’t necessarily need to pick Blade of Light, if its competitive with Crusading Strikes then you get a spell that can consistently trigger SL even on ST which is a good way for the AoE build to be more effective on ST.
On top of the Judgement mastery thing that can now also trigger SL.
On the other side, Divine Arbiter now says it gains stacks on Highlord’s Judgement and Holystrike damage instead of “casting holystrike abilities”.
Which could mean that now it works with Blessed champion.
If you consistently get 5 stack on CS and Judgement, it makes DA much better on AoE/cleave.
Effectively improving both build at the profile they struggle with.
Currently ret has to completely spec into AOE to do good AOE. There isn’t much of a choice here because the result is all the same. Using builders to use divine storm.
Most specs have variety in what buttons are used to accomplish AOE. I suggest another build using alternate talent point selections to achieve AOE through templar’s/final verdict instead.
This is why I used fire mage as an example. Currently there are two builds you can use in keys as fire – you can spec into buffing the aoe power, flame strike. or you can spend points on ignite and ignore the points that buff flame strike.
similarly, I think it would be very thematic for ret paladin to be able to invest points in a similar-to-ignite talent.
I have been talking about this from the beginning, here is from my OP
The reason I call it the “good” build is that there are mobs in M+ that advance the key if you kill them, and there are mobs that are just “pad” for most classes. If you have a spriest and havoc demon hunter, or shaman, or rogue, in general these classes have builds where you don’t have to press your AOE finisher to still do good damage. for some rogue specs this actually turns into funnel where you do even more damage to the primary target than you would without the “pad” mobs
Ret paladin missing this option means the spec is directly missing basic capability that most classes have, and until this is fixed, unless ret’s damage is super buffed like it is right now it will never be viable for top-end keys where your primary target damage becomes much more important.
Thematically, not having a way to do good “prio damage” seems really unsatisfying to me.
This is a nuanced opinion. I think you are trying to simplify it but I don’t think balancing classes is at all simple. I imagine that the game designers are keenly aware of how difficult it is to balance ret. BM hunters jut got kill cleave, for example. I believe it is ret paladin’s turn to get updated into this “modern” damage profile that is so important
And just like with mages, the AoE build (divine storm) has its place IMO, but I think another build option would be quite thematic and appropriate.
i just want to say that multiple specs that does st cleave, often wish they have a aoe only button like ret paladin. theres isnt much of a reason to fix what isnt broken