"Remove WBs -- only a 40% damage loss!"

Regarding the desire to remove world buffs, I’ve seen some speculation that this could result in a 40% damage loss, if it were to happen. Losing 40% of your (collective) damage would result in fights taking ~66.7% longer.

For classes with finite resources (a mana bar), wouldn’t this prove to be a problem they’d need to solve, while warriors would just continue to zug zug as if nothing had changed? They’d do less dps, obviously, but increasing fight lengths changes nothing for them. While warriors benefit the most from WBs, scaling wise, removing WBs seems to only really present a challenge to other classes.

Yes everything you said was correct. You can probably look up warcraft logs data from Season of Mastery, but iirc warriors were still top dps, followed by rogues, hunters and mages. We already tried this, and unsurprisingly no one wanted to play SoM. People like their world buffed warriors too much.

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Thats true, although If i remember correctly they also boosted the HP of bosses by ~100% and gave them more mechanics. I (opinion:) think the allure of classic was the ease of content, letting people get gear easily but not without effort, which allowed players to focus partly on social aspects. While i too dont like WBs, I can bend knowing its a big change to classic.

WB are basically popular with the same people who turned classic into an RMT trash-hole. If you are alliance you still need to RMT with a chinese guy to MC cap you outside of xroads in order to get full WBs.

Never belonged in the game. Never was an intended strategy. Never was even really used in vanilla. World First KT they didn’t even have Ony buff. Sweatiest guild in WoW vanilla didn’t even have full WBs to kill the end boss.

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World buffs wasnt the reason SoM failed.

the reason it failed was it was barely changed from vanilla, AND there was no WBs.

That’s likely why in SoD, they went the complete other direction and changed too much, but the phases lasting 3x longer than they were likely supposed to was what killed sod, P1 and P2 were fine, but once people saw P3-P5 were lasting exponentially longer with barely anything added (for it being a season of DISCOVERY we’ve had literally one new dungeon the entire lifespan of sod and its not even in a previously unreleased or unfinished area, its just ashenvale’s demon area made into a dungeon) they started quitting. I mean obviously you had the swipers leave because they couldnt control yet another fresh economy too, but that was in P1 and P2 was still going strong.

This is just wrong.

If they didnt belong in the game, they just wouldnt be, as we saw from literally every expansion afterwards.
If it wasn’t intended, they either wouldn’t stack, or they just wouldnt work in dungeons/raids. It was intended. Information on WoW was just nonexistent in 2004-2006. WoWhead, and any site like it, didn’t exist. You just had allakhazam and thottbot (which lets be real, were the exact same thing in different font/lighting) which were just item databases. The only reason people knew GM items or the island even existed was because someone successfully repacked a vanilla client and made a video titled “GM Power” in like 2005 and got people searching the item names.

Instead, they not only worked, but they stacked. Stacking is what made them exponentially powerful, but the problem wasn’t even that, it was that almost all of them heavily favored melee while giving next to nothing for ranged or spellcasters (since as I’m sure you’re aware, hunters had different stats than m/w/p/d because of ranged AP and ranged SP being two different stats, and the way warriors worked, they gained more benefits from stat and gear changes than literally every other class combined. Ferals are an outlier because the way they worked, their item literally didnt matter (hence why ferals used manual crowd pummeler from gnomregan as their bis even in naxx, and they used it for its On use, not any other stat) Energy regen being super slow for rogues and ferals also didnt help.

The phrase you’re looking for is “They werent needed”, because…you know…they werent.

Content wasn’t tuned around WB, it was tuned around blue/purple gear. Things werent tuned for all epics until what, AQ? and even then all the raids had fights that preferred heavy spell school resistance gear over ilvl and stats. Adding WBs on top of that was overkill and instead of blizzard doing anything about that, they just left it for vanilla’s 2 year cycle and then instead of iterating on the idea at all, decided to just abandon and throw away the concept and literally never use it again.

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this is so ridiculous. you think mana classes can’t handle the pushover bosses of vanilla without WBs?? :expressionless:

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so why did SoD fail :expressionless:

Lol it will help mana users learn down ranking n mana management

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Completely pedantic and useless comment.

All of the evidence down to the fact that horde has an entire extra (and ridiculously strong) WB that Alliance cannot get without cross-faction collusion (which was against TOS) display, in an overwhelmingly obvious way, that WBs were never intended to be used the way they are now. They were supposed to be random-OP buffs to celebrate the completion of a hard quest / raid.

These buffs would not even exist in mass amounts on normal 2004-2006 servers because there was not enough population to complete the one-time-quest that spawns many of them.

2019 classic degenerated into people using hundreds of warlock alts across dozens of extra accounts in order to summon raids all over the game and get world buffed and then proceed to never log in for a week. People are still RMTing for Rend on Alliance 5 years later on Whitemane. It’s a complete clownshow from a complete clown company who has no respect for the original design of the game that made the company (that they have a job with now) unbelievably successful.

They should remove world buffs and then reduce raid boss health by 25%.

Easy.

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Worth noting that with the removal of world buffs also came the removal of the debuff limit and an increase to most raid boss health pools. It’s pretty tough to compare these two outright without digging further in, but I wanted to call attention to the other differences.

Personally, I’m 100% ok with the removal of world buffs but I do think the removal of the debuff limit would be important to include as well.

I’d also like the buff limit to be removed, but I think a hypothetical change here might have to be more nuanced. Allowing people to use their abilities, set bonuses, and various talents without knocking off important buffs is a good thing! However, allowing players to stack even more things beyond what they already do is maybe not. Though I suppose a removal of world buffs does mitigate this.

I’m not really sure you can draw that conclusion either. I actually really wanted to particpate in SoM but I had conflicting priorities at the time. Classic had just ended and I was still raiding retail and wanted to spend time in TBC. If I remember correctly, SoM launched with TBC:Classic only a few months old and in the mist of a retail season.

I think most folks agree that the timing was poor for a time limited event that was a do-over of the Era content that had been going on for the previous two years. At that time, even Era was a complete ghost town, with far fewer players than it had today.

Anyway, it may well be that people didn’t want to play SoM because they didn’t have OP warriors, or there may be other factors. It’s just really hard to know for certain. All I know is my own views on it, which is that I want the debuff limit removed… and if we were to do that, raids would be doing more damage overall and so removing world buffs seems like a possible way to offset that. Of course, that might offset it too much :slight_smile:

The raids and classes were not balanced around world buffs. Every single class is capable of functioning without them.

Warriors have the two strongest cooldowns in the game (Death Wish & Recklessness).

They aren’t anything special on a 6 min encounter. But they’re extremely strong on a 1 min or less fight.

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If you cant complete the content without world buffs that sounds like a you problem, not a game problem.

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Good thing that wasn’t all I said, huh. Read past the first line.

Wrong. it was an oversight, one that was corrected, and the classic no change andies complained about enough to get it removed again, a few months ago. It also was not against TOS. This is just you being salty in retrospect that you didn’t think of it (if you even played in vanilla, I currently don’t care enough about you to try to find an achievement that would signify that your character(s) existed prior to 2007 when TBC launched and you actually did any content that would leave you knowledgeable of this.

It never made sense to not get that buff for the alliance knowing the significance the black dragons have with the alliance. Again, it’s an oversight, nothing more.

Again, if that was all they were, they would be removed upon zoning into a dungeon/raid, and yet, they weren’t.

They existed. They just weren’t well known due to how information traveled in 2004. If people knew about world buffs, you absolutely would have had millions of warlock alts. People didn’t know about them because the general public was dumb and guilds were secretive. Not a hard concept and not some conspiracy.

Not responding to you anymore if you aren’t going to read the entire comment of someone who you’re replying to, as there is literally no point in what a waste of effort that would essentially just be even breathing to type a response you won’t bother to read anyway just because you want to aggressively argue a lie.

You are wrong, since in the World First KT kill they are using world buffs, yet not all of them. You talk about not reading posts, but this is one of the first points I made about WBs.

You mean corrected 20 years later? Are you serious?

It was not an oversight, it was never intended to be something that needed to be balanced between horde and alliance because it was never intended to be a staple of raiding. Blizzard didn’t just “forget” to give an entire faction 15% melee haste, which might be the most powerful buff in the game. This is obvious if you make any attempt whatsoever to be honest with your thinking.

I read the whole thing. You are dishonest, pedantic, moron who thinks people didn’t know about world buffs in OG vanilla, and who has no ability to grasp the obvious reality that they were not intended to be farmed and stacked every week.

You’re saying I’m salty that I didn’t think to pay an orc IRL cash to MC cap me for Rend in 2006? Good argument. You are a grass-eating animal.

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Same old arguments that nobody cares about

If you want to play play, if you don’t like the server body don’t

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no :expressionless: they’re already easy enough even without world buffs, which is what makes this request so ridiculous

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How dare you.

No real fresher plays for the raids only anyways.

“I can’t wait to do bwl again” said nobody ever.

It’s about the whole package

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SoD failed because it took a year for the time gating to let us get 60.

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