They should build self-esteem in real life, not a video game.
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Forging being removed and something else deterministic being added is completely fine. I donāt see anyone asking for that here though. The whole hatred towards Titanforging comes from RNG which should be extremely obvious, if blizzard added something like badges or VP back to the game in an improved way I donāt think many would have much of an issue with it.
This whole thread is just for casuals to dump on raiders/āhardcoreā players though. Honestly the special snowflakes seem like those who want everything for doing nothing as opposed to the raiders who want gear to be more deterministic and less RNG but hey that doesnāt fit your narrative so it must be wrong.
Either way that isnāt my issue. I donāt care what you get. I donāt want gear to be based on RNG. Literally every aspect of gear is RNG. Thatās insane to me and makes gearing a very boring non goal oriented system. Iām not sure how TF is in any way better than badges or VP/JP.
Also, TF doesnāt give you extra ways to get gear. The gear avenues themselves are extremely rewarding (390-400 ilvl WQ gear, 400 ilvl warfront gear, 410 ilvl a week for doing a 10/400lvl baseline for doing 10s, etc). TF just gives you a mindless brain dead way of āpotentiallyā getting an upgrade.
This has nothing to do with your WQ and LFR gear. Itās the fact that Iām decked out in gear higher ilvl than mythic raid from running mythic plus and mythic raids now feel unrewarding after killing bosses for the first time.
Spamming mythic 15s should not reward better gear than mythic raid bosses.
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Right, theyāre just asking for forging to be removed. Aka: Thread title. Thatās kinda my point.
Uh, casuals arenāt asking for forging to be removed, raider/āhardcoreā players are.
Thatās a lie. In fact, thank you for making that claim. Youāre mythic 9/9. If you were gearing from M+ only youād be telling the truth (aside from residuum). If you were a casual gearing from Emissary rewards youād be telling the truth. Youāre not. The system that rewards 415 (raiding in general actually) is the most deterministic system players have at their disposal atm due to the ability to target bonus rolls and swap non-bonus roll gear between players. Forging impacts players at a lower gear level far more than it does folks at the top simply because they get far more useless gear that could actually forge to useful for them because theyāre not getting 415 gear from raiding and theyāre the only ones that can get gear that can forge higher than 10 due to the ilvl cap.
So are you advocating getting rid of forging in Mythic raids and adding VP/JP? No, of course not. Such a position is stupid. If youāre advocating for a VP/JP system itās not for you, itās for other people. Which means your claimā¦
Is a load of crap.
And TF is supposed to be a bonus. Thatās exactly the goal of it. If you do raids and you already have all 415? Cool, you can still get a forged upgrade. But donāt pretend that people donāt fish for forges. They absolutely do. Which means your claim here is also wrong.
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Explain how gearing isnāt RNG. Gem sockets arenāt RNG? Tertiary stats arenāt RNG? Item level isnāt RNG? People in my raid are 419 ilvl while Iām at 413, theyāve done the exact same thing I have yet they have 6 entire ilvls on me (sounds small but itās not) because they got lucky? Yeah, gearing is RNG. The base item levels themselves arenāt RNG but itās insane to even focus on that because you have no idea if youāll get the base item level which is already ridiculous.
As stated, I donāt care what you get but Iād rather have JP/VP in the game than TF because itās healthier for the game. I understand TF affects casuals and those who fish for TF more than it would affect me but at the very least it would turn gearing into a deterministic system which it isnāt. This was a really good attempt at a āgotchaā though. I can not care what you get but prefer a deterministic system for the game as a whole. I also have alts which this affects and this system still affects me as well. People in my raid getting plenty of 425s for killing the same bosses I am, Iād much rather have that be deterministic instead.
Got all 415 gear from mythic? Cool. Continue to raid and -hope- for an upgrade. Iād rather get all 415 and then upgrade it over time. Tired of āhopingā for an upgrade. A deterministic system would be much healthier for the game. Of course itād come with its own negatives as well but weāve had time with both of these systems and Iād certainly take that over this.
Either way though the devs have talked about removing it already just recently and they told people at the creator summit itās a top priority. Personally Iād rather have it capped but if they remove it I wouldnāt care much. No point in talking further, TF has been complained about for years and theyāre finally going to do something so Iāll just wait and see what that is.
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But you donāt care about gear other people get? Sounds like youāre a little salty other people get lucky forges.
But itās even worse than that. If youāre sub 415 itās because youāre not even wearing all mythic gear. Which means forging isnāt to blame for your guildies being 419 while youāre 413. Letās look at this a moment.
You have one forged piece of gear giving you +5 forged ilvls on a trinket. The rest of your non-mythic gear is base ilvl from M+ chest or heroic gear. You literally donāt even have a single point of overall ilvl increase from forging. So show me this magical person who has 6 ilvl from forging that youāre complaining about in your guild that also has 4 slots containing non-mythic gear.
Itās funny because I point at that and say, āthey wonāt remove it without adding something because they acknowledge itās content for people and would leave people at an ilvl wall with nothing to do for those who choose not to engage in organized group contentā and Iām happy with that. You point at it and say, āyeah but they donāt like it and theyāre going to do something about it haha!ā And then we look at 8.2 and see forging is still there, they just also added Benthic gear on top of all the other stuff. Looks like it was such a top priority that they didnāt touch it at all, lul.
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Feels good man!
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Hereās a solution ,get rid out mythic + just have mythic since there so many problem with greedy indivilauls selling runs.And solves this Wf/Tf problem,If you canāt behave then donāt have it.
A priority for the next expansion if youād use your brain a bit. They clearly stated they want something to replace the content farming aspect of TF with. Whenever they come up with something that does so theyāll opt to do whatever it is they want with TF or so it seems.
And yeah, I strongly dislike the TF system so when it goes Iāll be happy as long as they bring in something better to replace it with. I fully understand people like you or casuals would hit an ilvl wall and thatās not fun which is why Iāve repeatedly suggested capping TF or adding a deterministic way of getting that ilvl boost similar to VP. Iām not sure why youāre so heavily against a deterministic system that would replace a fully RNG system. The deterministic system allows people to set goals and decide what will be an upgrade while TF just has you hoping for one.
And youāre right, I donāt have a single increase in Ilvl from forging while thereās people who have +6 total ilvls from forging. Itās an RNG based system, there will be people who are unlucky like myself. Look at how many bosses Iāve killed from heroic and mythic, look at how many m+ Iāve done, you canāt see how many WQs Iāve done but itās plenty. I just got the short end of the stick. Also, I have 400 ilvl gear equipped (my belt) because it has leech which is very good for healers specifically hpals. Itās another part of the RNG in gearing. My trinket is 405 because Iāve given up the mythic one for dps plenty of times already and I wasnāt lucky enough to get a TF version from heroic. Iām not going to link you guildmates but there are plenty that have TFed pieces from killing the same bosses I have.
I prefer deterministic systems over RNG systems, itās that simple. Iād like to decide when I get to upgrade a piece of gear that I have rather than the game deciding to bless me with a +10-15 ilvl forge in order for me to get an upgrade. Weāre never going to agree so Iāll leave it at that.
So show me the guildy of yours that has so much forging that they have 6 ilvl increase on you. This is a claim you madeā¦
So prove it. Who is it? Who has 419 ilvl where 6 ilvl are from forging. And remember, you didnāt say one person. You said āpeopleā. You made a claim, it should be pretty easy to back up if itās true. But my money is that you wonāt because your claim is fabricated.
Iām not. At all actually. If youāre advocating for the removal of forging and the implementation of a deterministic system that doesnāt change the status quo of power progression to be more advantageous to Mythic raiders than it already is, awesome. Iām down with that. Entirely.
Iām just very dubious that thatās the claim youāve been making because youāve expressed salt due to the gear other people have. Even still, there are mythic raiders who have, in this very thread, expressed a problem with not only forging but also with casuals even having access to heroic gear at all, even if it is time gated. And thatās the far more common position. Some of them even like to lie and pretend itās good for casuals if they donāt have gear that high of ilvl and that theyāre arguing in the best interest of casuals, thatās always a laugh to read. If youāre getting lumped in with those folks, perhaps you should be explicit and respond to them saying youāre opposed to their suggestions, that you just want forging replaced with more deterministic systems. Do that, and Iāll happily throw my support behind you full heartedly and Iāll even apologize for any undeserved snark Iāve thrown your way.
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You sounds like little timmy? Are you the one who stands in fire and dies in LFR?
Haha you are a funny one.
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Agreed. Iād be all for this with an upgrade system through currency as well
Oh I fully understand there are people that advocate for the removal of TF because they donāt want people to get gear. I get that. Thatās not the claim Iāve made. Iāve expressed my dissapointment over how unlucky Iāve gotten through this system and Iāve compared myself to guildies who have 419 ilvl due to the sheer amount of luck theyāve had through forging. Iām not saying they donāt deserve it, Iām saying I do too. Weāve killed the same bosses, neither of us are getting carried, our item levels shouldnāt be based on RNG like this. However, Iām not going to link random guildmates in this thread. You can believe me or not, it doesnāt matter. My main disapproval of TF is solely due to it being RNG gearing on top of 2 other RNG systems gearing already has.
Youāre certainly lumping me in the crowd thatās elitist. āI should be the one to get this and only me and those who play like me!!ā Is not where Iām coming from. I have responded to them plenty in the 5 million threads about TF, they wonāt listen so thereās no real reason to do so.
I couldāve explained this better, let me try again. What -you- get doesnāt matter to me, itās how you get it that matters. If you spent weeks upgrading gear to get a 410 piece of loot, thatās great. If you randomly got a 410 piece of gear for spending 2 minutes killing boars, thatās not okay. Itās not okay because that upgrade was given to you by the RNG gods, not by any goals you set to achieve. The same goes for me, Iād rather spend weeks upgrading than have to hope these boars give me an upgrade.
I donāt want titanforging to be removed with nothing to replace it. Thatād just make the gearing system very barebones. I want a deterministic system so that everyone can set a goal and reach it. I donāt want the RNG gods to bless me in order to get upgrades, I wanna set goals. Thatās literally all it is, Iām not sure why you continue to assume thereās some alterior motive.
Sorry, this is a different topic.
You are literally farming mythic bossesā¦ That is why you scoff at forging, because your mythic loot just did not drop whereas someone who only killed heroic has that mythic level TF loot. Right?
Ok, is there anyone in here, who is pushing for mythic progression, who can touch their heart and say they despise forging even though it gives them access to mythic level gear which will help them achieve said progression?
Edit: I just saw your latest post. I just want to make my point clear that there are players with different trajectories for progression. For every player in a world top 10 guild, there are hundreds if not thousands still chasing that cutting edge. I too agree that if there is an alternative way to helping them instead of via forged gear, then go ahead and implement that by all means. But just āremove titanforgeā is not fair, just so that 1% of the playerbase can continue living their grandoise lives while seeing the other 99% suffer for whatever reasons.
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So youāre presenting two distinct arguments. First you want content you do to be more deterministic. Iām on board, I literally donāt know anyone who wouldnāt prefer a more deterministic system.
Then we step into the messā¦
Yeap, that sounds very similar to people making arguments about what gear other people deserve.
What about doing a M+ and looting a weekly chest? What about getting a 400 for killing a world boss? Or doing a warfront turnover? Or doing the weekly Mythic dungeon quest? Youāre stepping into territory that sounds very familiar to the claims youāve said you werenāt making thus far. Based upon your other statements in your post Iām going to assume youāre not speaking to whether people deserve the gear or how much āeffortā they put in to get it but purely to the lottery style of rewards that WoW has transitioned to over time for world content. This commentary can easily be misunderstood and is probably why people are jumping on what youāre saying. A lot of it is exactly the same with a slight difference in emphasis as the tools who feel like their e-weewees deflate because casuals get heroic gear.
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That only happen one time while doing a world quest for me for a trinket that was rare jumped to epic and titanforged and it was in the lowest titanforge range across 7 level 120s i have i would say its lotto winning rare in all these months.
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How exactly is that second part related to RNG or titanforging? Looting 410 ilvl from your chest is what the reward is set at. Iām not here to discuss baseline rewards, Iām here to discuss titanforging. If world quests give you 385 then thatās just how it is, titanforging being in the game or not wouldnāt effect that as itās the baseline reward which is an entirely different conversation. We have a ton of gear avenues, some of which are very rewarding to those who donāt raid and thatās fine. How else can people who donāt raid get gear? The line is overstepped when all of a sudden this 400 piece of warfront gear titanforges to 425. Thatās the RNG factor that I donāt believe should be in the game regardless of how small the chance is.
What Iām saying seems fairly simple to me. Titanforging gets replaced with a VP/JP like system. You go do WQs, dungeons, pvp, etc and you earn currency. You spend that currency to upgrade your gear. This allows people to set goals, go out and earn currency from whatever form of content they participate in and then use that currency to achieve the goal you set. Itāll have its problems as all systems do but itāll be better than logging in and praying for upgrades.
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Exactly. I donāt want titanforging removed with nothing to replace it. That would just screw over a bunch of players while satisfying others, similar to where we are now. Read my post above ^ to see my thoughts on that.
Thatās kinda what I mean, your argument is so similar to people who literally complain about casuals having heroic gear that itās easy to misunderstand what your point is. Particularly when the nuance of difference between your points and theirs is so small or when comments are even the slightest bit vague, itās easy to fill in those gaps and just assume your position is consistent with the bulk of the arguments being made. Itās not though. Youāve made your position clear so I apologize. In that case you and I are in perfect agreement then.
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