Also very few of those as well. Delves make it so you’re supposed to use defensives in these scenarios as well. Just like m+
Well if we keep things at the range that that difficulty offers gear, they’re the same.
T8 delve mobs will eat you alive just as fast as a M+ 2 mob will without heals.
And there’s not many boss mechanics that overlap any more than this boss mechanic either.
This is exactly what those people want. Easier scaling versions of dungeons.
Check 
This entire premise assumes everyone who plays PvE wants to or is able to raid. We had an ultimate raid or die expansion; it was the one right before the addition of M+.
M+ isn’t just a fun little thing to do on off-raid nights, it’s a complete replacement for players who don’t want to raid. Perhaps Blizzard should have added something other than M+, but keeping it as a stepping stone to raid wouldn’t solve one of the main problems M+ solves.
And yet we still see balance changes like Blizzard buffing the crap out of fire mage for raid despite it already being the primary DPS in one of the most static M+ metas we’d ever seen. There certainly have been class changes in response to M+, but to suggest M+ is the only mode that features such changes is pretty out to lunch.
Like what? There is zero argument that Blizzard has put more content into the game for players who have no interest in M+ (and raid for that matter) since Legion, and it’s not even close.
We can quantify the number of keys for zero reward in which clearly those players are doing so because they find key pushing fun. We cannot do the same with any other endgame in WoW. You can’t possibly prove that M+ is only run because it’s the path of least resistance. You can’t possibly prove M+ players would flock to pet battles if the rewards were good enough. And the only data we actually have on the subject shows there are more keys run beyond where rewards no longer get better than there are raids run every season.
For many people, this is a feature and not a bug. Having the same set of dungeons allows for players to build mastery of the dungeon.
High keys have some of the least toxicity of any PvE endgame because everyone understands the assignment. I guess we can also pretend raiders are all saints and there is no toxicity amongst that community.
While also encouraging more varied ways to overcome the challenge associated with the timer. Pretty much every other form of challenge in endgame content is pass/fail with only a single form of counterplay, playing better.
Blizzard has a ton of MMOs to draw inspiration from in this regard.
I don’t get why players like you are so hardstuck on M+ being the thing to fill the void for raiding off nights?
When I see comments like this, that call for constant character progression outside of raiding, I just see a person that has a unhealthy relationship with the game.
Why do you think the devs created M+ in the first place? It was to pad out player time in their game. I’m sure it is fun for some players, but most people I play WoW with hate it, M+ just added more pressure to play more.
Content!!! I feel like these kinds of questions not being in good faith at all. You’re an MMO player, I’m sure you can dream more fun activites to do in-game than grinding the same 8 dungeons over and over again.
This is one of WoW’s biggest flaws atm, the game is too fixated on driving players into these repetitve gear treadmills that are only fun for a few weeks.
Retail WoW is filled now with live-service gimmicky systems, all meant to just pad MAUs, most of which just cause burnout.
In that case you’ve got full support from me. They just need go tune it so that every pull requires full blown cooldowns, preferably even cc ans bl so that you go 1 mob at a time.
If we go by just 70 mobs requiring all that, plus 4 bosses, that puts a dungeon at 740 minutes, or 12 hours and 20 minutes, given that you never wipe. Of course you lock it so only the same players that started are the ones who can finish it (as it is in current m+) to make sure leader doesn’t kick someone out and replace them at last boss. That in turn also means that if someone leaves after 12 hours you got to do the rest as a group of four, which is going to be rather impossible, I.E. 12 hours are wasted.
I’ve got a feeling that it won’t be a very popular mode, but by all means I’d love for you guys to be allowed to play it.
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Unless what the people really want is current m+ without the timer, which is just an easy-mode that can only reasonably exist without any rewards tied to it.
What content? Trivial world content? Scaled instances? If so scaled for what ilvl? Rewarding what? How often? Etc etc etc…
What activities do you want to do? Do you want there to be mechanics? Do you want to even use your class / spec gameplay? Do you want it to be something raiders want to do? Do you want it to offer a challenge to players, if so then which players should be challenged?
I enjoy playing my class, I enjoy coordinating with other players, and I enjoy doing content that pushes me to optimise how well I play my class. M+ ticks all 3 of those boxes.
All MMO’s are on a loop at end game
A lot of people just find mythic+ fun.
Not everyone of course.
It’s really not that deep.
Sorry? I have Keystone Master this season, I just play as DPS. Tanking isn’t worth the extra headache for no extra reward is all I am saying. I don’t play for extra stress and aggravation. This is a game after all.
Is that supposed to mean something? If you can DPS with a timer then why can’t you tank with a timer?
It might be “extra headache” for you, but there’s a lot of perks that come with tanking. Getting into groups easier being a big one as well as setting the pace for the run. If you see it as extra work then it’s more of a mindset issue.
What blows my mind is that Devs think failing a dungeon and having it automatically downrank keys for 12+ is too bad and punishing of an experience for elite players doing 12+, so they’ve done away with it…
… but because they think it’s fun and enhances the experience of people doing keys 11 and under, they kept it for those folks.
Brilliant. Just absolutely brilliant. These people really have the pulse of their playerbase.
It’s moreso recognizing that players who timed every dungeon at +12 have “beat progression” in terms of rewards. Allowing lower keys to not degrade would cause a lot of issues in terms of failing upwards significantly more than now and also enabling players to buy carries for +10 and then have that key the rest of the season no matter how unprepared they are for it. This will enable them to repost their key countless times while dragging pugs down with them.
So by your own reasoning delves would be the best end-game system.
“Less time commitment” yep, especially when you add in the time to get into the group.
“Smaller groups” yep, wins there too.
“Less down time” at least tied, probably better.
“The gear is just the icing on the cake.” Delves are “just a better and more accessible end game system”
IMO each pillar exists for a different group and is best for that group for many different reasons. We can speculate all we want on the forumns, but it’s really down to Daddy Blizz and how the devs want us to play the game. 
I mean, look, at the end of the day - both casual and elite players complain about it being a problem, so they fixed it… for elite players. Is anyone really surprised by that at this point? lol
Yes, you are correct and I would bet that if there was a way to track the numbers, we would see that delves are overwhelmingly the most popular end game system.
Just because people complain doesn’t mean it’s something that needs to be fixed. I actually don’t like the idea of keys not depleting even in the high end. I would have much preferred a counter system.
I think my big issue with it is not really understanding why Mythic+ needs to be punitive for the 1 person who actually has the patience and initiative to start a group for his key. Just seems unnecessary, but what do I know? I’d rather play another game all together than - as a DPS player - spend the time to form my own Mythic+ group and wait for a tank/healer.
Because it was designed to be played with friends and not so much pugged. Therefor it’s not really punishment when in your own circle of friends. And even if so, you have 4 other people with keys to do them with as well.
I think good developers need to be able to pivot after many, many many years at this point… what they intended for one use case has been used by players in a very different use case, and having the defense of: “well, this isn’t what we intended for it to be used for, so we’re not going to change this aspect of it” … is honestly not a very good one.
I get it, you lack vision. This is a common problem for many WoW players. Themepark MMO junkies on full display here.
This is a mindset issue. It’s not punitive. Yes, the key holder’s putting their own key at risk, but you have to remember that it’s also only their key that levels up if it gets timed. The issue with keys not depleting is that M+ is infinitely farmable and it wouldn’t be right to get a +10 key that never depletes and being able to farm Myth vault or crests from failing over and over again.