I agree with a lot of the things being spoke about in here, there are a lot of really good points being made. I feel it’s absolutely true that mythic plus should be treated as a challenge mode and making a really easy couple of levels is sort of against what it is at its core and doesn’t promote learning to do the mechanics any more than mythic 0 already offers. It would be nice to have a ramp up to the content feel more impactful in the normal and heroic versions. The timer honestly, I don’t mind it. It adds an extra element of challenge but isn’t very punishing at the mythic levels being mentioned by op (under +6). It’s seems mostly inconsequential enough.
Lol. Stick to your Delves.
Same thing happens in raids.
Same thing happens in literally every other wow content ever made except mythic+ which is the the only infinite scaling content added to the game.
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Yes, and the timer is the only reason it works. Without the timer they would need to scale difficulty purely on trash and boss numbers which would turn M+ into 5 man raids where scaling hits the theoretical limit much faster. Scaling would have to account for 1 pack pulls with full CDs.
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Which puts the challenge theyre trying remove, right back into it
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In a worse way cause now it’s not the timer being the wall it’s the actual trash/boss so they can’t even do a completion run.
Not really sure where you’re getting the 4%. But the point is even if nothing else changed about the structure, players who push the untimed variant would reach higher scaling levels than those on the timed side. So each mob in the untimed variant would be more threatening than each mob in the timed variant. Yes, if we want the trash to have difficulty parity between the modes Blizzard would have to do more than just rely on players getting to higher scaling numbers as the bosses would become the main problem for untimed.
And a healing check. And hard hitting adds. And the boss itself then combines these along with an add interaction that creates additional challenges. And there are 2 more bosses plus the rest of the varieties of trash through the rest of the dungeon.
Yes, we can find individual examples of nearly every dungeon mechanic in delves, but they never occur on the same frequency or with the same overlaps because of needing to ensure every spec can get through it.
I’m not disputing this is the case for many players asking for this, probably even most players asking for it. It’s just too broad of a brush to paint all players who might ask for a timerless dungeon as players who want there to be reward for no challenge. Some will legitimately simply want to give a +37 level worth of scaling on Grim Batol a whirl for the challenge it presents, but it probably isn’t even mathematically possible for them to time a +36 to get there (and to be clear, perhaps a +37 would be impossible even untimed; my point is that untimed would allow for the potential to reach higher scaling numbers).
Sure, but raiding still has 4 different difficulties and are tuned such that the highest difficulty takes the average group that will reach the finish line months to do so. The mega dungeons have two difficulties and even hard mode is quite doable for most capable groups inside of a couple weeks.
And what’s wrong with this as a separate game mode from M+? Yes, most people asking for the timer to be removed are likely just looking for easier shinies.
But I know people who couldn’t care less if the mode dropped any gear whatsoever, they just want to have 5-man content that plays like a raid. Creating a sister mode to M+ that scales like M+ with some form of a key stone but lacks a timer and affixes seems like an easy way to give these people that mode. And if the mode flops, Blizzard can simply remove it without having investing much time into its creation in the first place.
Best thing to do is admit you have a skill level and its below other people.
Play the content you want, at the level you can, and just enjoy the game
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Spell it with me
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Scaling content with its own mechanics that lacks a timer and affixes. Literally checks every box you mentionrd
More like remove Hero gear from Delves, right my dudes?
Kidding kidding. That guaranteed Hero gear is way too nice and convenient. Beats farming M+ 0-6 any day.
Oh timers? Don’t you still get gear at the end regardless of timing or not? Better yet, doesn’t it count towards vault? I mean I wouldn’t know or anything with all the back-breaking carries I’ve done on untimed +10 keys.
Not sure why anyone cares about the timer. Delves are right there with guaranteed Hero gear if you get a map, and sweet vault loot on top of it.
I mean you’re just cherry picking at this point. Delves do not, and cannot, have the mechanical depth of dungeons. There are no healing checks. There are no damage checks. There are no enemies that will murder a non-tank in seconds with auto-attacks. Outside of a couple bosses, no caster has a must-kick spell on shorter than a 30 second cooldown. And whatever watered down versions of these kinds of mechanics do exist in delves cannot overlap with one another with any regularity as that would put even more strain on the limited capabilities of any single spec.
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There is, which is why Brann has the option to be a healer.
Sure there is, just have to go beyond reward level (like in m+)
This is only a thing because of the timer. If we’re discussing removing the timer from m+, then there’s no damage checks there either.
And what do you think happens when you have 5 people with a kick and are only fighting one mob at a time?
But they do exist. What’s the candle delve. The one where the final boss has the limited area from candle visibility, He’s got the swirlies on the floor, followed by a hard hitting ability, then you get thrown, have to get back into candle light, avoid swirlies and heal up. All happening at the same time. While also having an enrage
Now I haven’t done them in a group but they scale up per group member too. So it’s got a double scaling effect which definitely puts in a healing check
They’re there. I don’t know why it’s so hard to concede the fact that an untimed m+ is mimicked by delves.
I will never understand why the developers tried to make 5 man dungeons try to rival raiding. Instead of adding different content to the game to satiate people that wanted things to do during raid off nights, they took a system that was meant as stepping stone into raiding and turned WoW dungeons into some weird ARPG progression system.
Greater Rifts in Diablo worked, because class balance in ARPGs is not as important as it is in a MMORPG.
I’ve watched over the years the huge arms race M+ created between the classes, because every season classes that weren’t meta would complain.
The class system in WoW really wasn’t designed around the idea of small group dungeons being a form of hard endgame, but the devs have insisted on pushing this design depsite this, all which has come at the expense of other areas of the game.
I know the M+ bros will say I’m wrong, and use their silly strawmans to try to deflect, but M+ was a bad move, at least the way it operates now.
The intention of making dungeons last longer was a good idea, but trying to morph them into an endgame pillar to rival raiding just doesn’t work for how the class system was designed.
Except the once a day limit of course. Biggest mistake with M0 is them not being queuable. At least they opened up the weekly dungeon quest to heroics. With that change and delves I’ll never use the LFG tool again except for WQs. 
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So you’re saying that the must popular end game system for multiple expansions…“doesnt work”
Interesting
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I always get a chuckle out of responses like this.
Drinking alcohol is super popular, doesn’t make it healthy for people to do.
Edit: If pet battles gave Mythic track gear, they would replace M+ for most players. M+ is only popular because it is the path of least resistence. And please don’t come at me with this, “well I push keys beyond gear rewards” because only a small portion of players push high keys for fun.
Cons of Mythic+ (M+) Dungeons
- Repetitive Gameplay – Running the same dungeons repeatedly can become tedious, especially with limited variety each season.
- Toxic Community – Higher keys often bring elitism, blame culture, and “meta comp” requirements, making it harder for non-meta specs to get invited.
- PUG Struggles – Finding a good group in LFG can be a nightmare, with constant group disbands and key depletion anxiety.
- Timer Pressure – The speedrun nature of M+ can feel stressful and discourages more methodical playstyles.
- Balance Issues – Some specs/classes dominate M+ while others struggle to get invites, leading to meta stagnation.
- Dungeon Design Variance – Some dungeons are much harder or more annoying due to boss mechanics, trash packs, or affixes.
- Affix Fatigue – Weekly affixes can sometimes feel more punishing than fun, and some weeks are significantly worse than others.
- Gear Progression Issues – High keys reward great loot, but upgrading gear via crests is time-gated, and vault RNG can be frustrating.
- Depleting Keys – Failing a key lowers its level, which can feel punishing and discouraging, especially for casual players.
- No Exploration or Adventure – Unlike open-world content or old-school dungeon crawling, M+ is strictly a time-trial challenge with little room for immersive RPG elements.
Very few unavoidable attacks will take you from 100-to-0 without healing, even over the course of several seconds. You generally only need the potions to prepare for the next attack. There are mechanics even within the levels of M+ that offer rewards that will do this for anyone who isn’t overgeared where a healer has to be healing throughout the mechanic.
But you don’t have to go beyond reward level in M+ to find such mobs, so this isn’t really a fair comparison.
These things do not happen at the same time, in some cases there are 10-15 seconds between each of these mechanics.
Because they’re not. Adding more players to a delve increases the scaling but not the number of mechanics. You can have up to 6 interrupts but still just a single mob casting a dangerous ability once per 30 seconds in a 5-player delve. Each delve has a single boss that in most cases have fewer mechanics than any single boss in an M+, and certainly far fewer than all the bosses that exist in a dungeon. Basically every mechanic combination in a delve is watered down compared to a dungeon due to needing to be possible by 39 different specs, and any combination of those specs.
So what do you suggest? Because if players want to engage with character progression / challenge outside of raiding the current only option is mythic+
Do we just go back to raid or die, just now with delves to let people slowly get to around heroic ilvl. What do you actually want.
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Except they didn’t…? It being a rival would insinuate that they are competing for the same thing when they aren’t. They are different forms of PvE for players who like PvE. This idea of yours that M+ rivals raiding is bonkers to say the least.
You mean… the literal exact same thing that happened in every setting, whether that be raids, PvP, or heck even stuff like Horrific Visions and Torghast? Because yes, people complained that there were better and worse classes and even roles for Horrific Visions, Torghast, etc.
This ain’t a M+ thing no matter how much you want to pretend it is.
This here is you poisoning the well, using an implicit ad hominem, and making a strawman to argue against. You used THREE fallacies in order to construct this absolutely devoid-of-reality-bonkers idea you have about M+ as well as people who just enjoy PvE in WoW.
You are quite literally just making stuff up to be upset about. Go outside and touch grass.
And its the path of least resistance (and more popular) because…
it abandons all the negatives of raiding. Less time commitment, smaller groups, less down time, etc…
The gear is just the icing on the cake. M+ is just a better and more accessible end game system