I think he wants the times back where, pre pull, sheep Moon, Trap Box, Sap X, Pull
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Specifically.
How did you have to deal with mob placement previously that was different?
I am saying that no current suggestions offer equal challenge.
I’m saying that something like that could be part of the design if you wanted a non-timed challenge mode. I’m not endorsing eliminating what we have.
Any M+ sans timer would need to have significantly less powerful rewards at the end as it would radically alter the difficulty rating of the attempt.
Part of the challenge of M+ is that you only have so many times you can blow cooldowns, things like bloodlust, and potions, etc before you run out of time to be able to finish.
Any untimed version would just allow people to sit in the instance and wait for cooldowns for every pull that’s too hard for them to handle otherwise.
And, you already have an untimed version to play with in reality. You can run an instance, not beat the timer, and still get a chest at the end. You just can’t boost the key out of it.
So it’s not as though not paying attention to the timer is entirely unrewarded now. You just actually have to beat the real difficulty of the timer to advance to higher levels.
I don’t see the problem with that.
3 hard CCs so you can single target DPS mobs 1 at a time is not a suggestion to offer equal challenge.
There’s a disconnect between people who are pushing high keys because they enjoy the race aspect of M+ versus the people who just want to go into a dungeon and get it done for the weekly rewards. When you’re in the latter you’re not pushing very high keys and AoE zerging can be done relatively smoothly without much issue. Nothing close to the old days of dungeons with CC and such, I know when I was doing weekly mythics we were never really doing that.
The thing I don’t get about this whole love of the race thing is that the competitive aspect can (and will) still absolutely be there even if you change the way the timer works. Imagine if you zoned in and the timer was a stopwatch where it started as you began the dungeon. You’d finish a dungeon in 48 minutes…was that good or bad? Who knows, then mythic IO updates and you see groups nailing it out in 30-35 and you’re like “Nope, we got work to do boys”.
The timer doesn’t actually have to be a race against a clock that Blizzard defines for us. The way I see this you can have your cake and eat it too. You want to mazda zoom zoom the dungeon down because you can and you want the best time on the server? Do it, but you won’t be able to idle between packs waiting for lust. Leave that to the crappy group that is just doing it for some gear.
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As long as the people trivializing the dungeon by waiting for CDs get worse gear. Sure!
If you make the encounter easier, that means worse quality reward.
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They could just treat it like old style hard modes. If you do the key inside the timer, have all chest loot be +5 item level. That way people who want to spend all damn day can still do a +15 and feel good about it.
Groups already do this today just to finish to get the chest. This already happens frequently with timers in place.
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While you have to be situationally aware in M+, you had to use LoS and be much more aware of roving packs in older dungeons. That can make a return. CC in all forms was used much more. If you broke that or mistimed things you were not likely to survive.
I’m not saying that M+ timed as it is doesn’t have situational challenges, but they are different in some ways.
I’d say increased mob counts, mob abilities, randomized patterns and increased boss difficulty could do that.
Remember the fail buff? I used to see groups want to afk for 5 minutes just so they could talk to Bwonsamdi.
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Wait, you don’t use LoS and don’t pay attention to roaming mobs in m+?
I am saying it would not do that.
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So make packs bigger? Composition also changes what CC tools you have.
Why? Seems like it would be harder to me.
We could also simply make mobs/bosses stronger and not care about your definition of equal challenge.
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Yeah, maybe with some sort of zone wide buff that scales so players could always find a challenge.
I think that I’m just too far removed from people who think LoS isn’t a thing in m+ to find any common ground in trying to talk about m+ with them 
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Which would just force the meta, much, much harder than it currently is.
Right now the only thing you really need to be viable in M+ is decent AoE, even as a Warlock, though we’ve been pretty meh all expansion that regard, while I’ll never compare to an equally skilled or geared Fire Mage or Havoc DH, I’m still perfectly fine for all but the highest level of keys.
But if you don’t have a CC that’s suited towards the dungeon? Yeah, you’re never getting invited. It’d make every Dungeon like Tol Dagor, where having something like a Rogue is the absolute bare minimum.
Respawns mean nothing if you can move faster than them. And if they’re fast enough to discourage strategies like CC’ing mobs down and killing them one at a time, or waiting for cooldowns, how will that make the pacing of the dungeon any different to a timer?
The timers in M+ and CM’s serve different purposes.
Like you said, CM as a dungeon weren’t hard, and beating the timer was the challenge.
Timers in M+ are basically an anti-cheese mechanic. Just because you can beat the dungeon doesn’t mean you’re ready for the next level. I essentially 4-manned a 19 last season, because one of our DPS spent about 90% of the dungeon DC’d.
We didn’t wipe very often, because we played it smart and we probably would have upgraded it if the system was based on deaths, but it wasn’t an experience I’m ever keen to repeat and took 80 minutes to do.
That’s the experience you’re missing out on when you ask for doing stuff like a +35 with no timer. Except you’re going to have to wait for defensive cooldowns because the ability that might do 20-30% of your Tanks HP in a 15, will one shot him with several hundred thousand damage to spare without every possible cooldown he has for it.
But back to my original point, the difference in the dungeons style is that the CM timer was like an enrage timer for a boss like Fetid Devourer or Ashvane. Beating it is entirely the challenge.
Whereas the M+ timer is more like an 18 minute Berserk timer on a mechanic heavy fight. If you do the fight as it’s intended, you’ll beat it easily. But the timer exists as a way to fail groups who might get around the mechanic check by doing something cheeky like bringing a couple extra tanks or healers to cheese certain mechanics.
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Sigh I’m saying you had more of this to deal with. Pack strategies as a whole were different.
So do you have anything positive to add to an alternate to the timer or do you simply feel threatened by other ways to play? I don’t get the negative one liners with nothing constructive offered.
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I also get the distinct impression that a lot of people fight directly on top of the mob spawns. Sanguine must be the bane of their existence.
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