This is all based on old Wrath data and private server data, we don’t know for certain if fury will be insane in ICC.
Everyone gets those buffs.
There is only one round of bots in XT hard mode, mostly killed by ranged dps.
One player is one player. In aggregate Warriors do well on XT but not top.
So, what’s that tell us? They do scale well…we know this. But do they scale well enough to be best or near best? That’s debatable. They haven’t (along with the other physical dps specs) scaled as well as first thought. So, I think there’s room for doubt that they will hit S tier.
Point is predictions aren’t facts. Especially the case where the predictions are made with limited relevant data.
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It’s funny warriors entire class is as desirable as one paladin spec and both the ret paladin and warriors as a whole only become more desirable in the final phase, yet people seem to think that ret deserves a buff 
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Well, if titans grip lost the 10% damage penalty, the top 5 parses on XT would all be fury warriors by pretty decent margins.
I mean, if you look at Algalon 25, the only fight currently requiring class comp manipulation, you’ve got 400 warrior kills. 260 of those are Fury. 56 are Arms, 66 are Prot and 18 gladiator
While there are 1556 Paladin parses on the fight, only 167 rets have killed Algalon 25, which shows that Fury warriors are more valued in that fight than ret, which is literally the best use case for DSac that will ever exist (which is our giant utility that apparently demands we stay trash tier)
So a guild is currently about 50% more likely to bring a fury warrior than a Ret to Algalon.
It’s really just holy/prot paladins that are over represented. You don’t need to punish ret paladins because their non-DPS roles are too strong.
Being top on one fight does not unbalanced make.
Recall that my proposal is for the set bonus to remove the Titans grip debuff, so it’s only really active for this phase. Acting as a short term corrective which later scaling will address.
XT performance may well be the difference between having a Warrior or not, which will help our lacking representation. Though you wouldn’t stack them for one fight. This is the aim, no? Improve representation but not go overboard.
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The point is warriors have a single raid spot to contest with, across every spec. Ret paladins also have a single spot. Ret and the entire warrior class are just as desirable as each other, and yet ret gets a buff with the preface that warrior will be strong come ICC, but is that not the exact same with ret?
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The top end is a good way to measure the max potential for a class on a fight, and the parses up there don’t have hallmarks of being extreme outliers as they sometimes do on fights where you see large gaps in performance. There are about 100 fury warriors that have beaten the top ret on XT hard mode.
I’m just not seeing anything in the data that suggests that fury needs that kind of a buff given it’s performance on the fights that aren’t gimmicky is generally fairly solid. Even looking at the more average performances on XT hard mode and Algalon, warriors are doing pretty much fine.
Furies asking for buffs does feel more like they want to be buffed to top tier before their gear gets them there.
Ret is just being buffed into less of last place.
To an extent. But not just for Fury. To mind it’s about the classes representation as a whole. To bring us up we need to be compelling in our most viable role.
An alternative is to buff Prot defensives.
An average of just under one Warrior of any spec in an average 25 man raid is by far the worst class representation.
I’d be cool with some kind of prot warrior buff to break the player perception that the other tanks are just flatly better.
That one is a bit of a tricky one though, because there really aren’t any fights that Prot warriors can’t do… They were the primarily used tanks the first time around, and a lot of the metrics that people tended to use I’m TBC to rank tanks (like their TPS) didn’t matter because all of them had more than enough of the stats to survive and hold threat.
I’m just not sure what the supposed deficit is there. Prot paladins don’t even have personal defensive cooldowns outside of ardent defender’s automatic cheat death (which is definitely strong, but well timed warrior cooldowns can be just as potent).
You’re basing that ret required a buff entirely on dps numbers. Class representation was apparently the reason why ret needed a buff and why unholy needed to be nerfed, not because of direct numbers. Warriors as a whole are being represented in raids as much as rets are being represented… Can you seriously not see how that is a problem now that ret is being buffed and warrior is continuing to bring no extra utility? Are you fine with warriors as a whole class having 1 spot to compete against all other warrior specs for? Whilst ret is given a spot in every raid, alongside 3 other paladins in a spot they do not have to compete for with the other specs?
Role representation was the problem.
The class representation argument only works when there are alternate specs that do the same thing.
Like when frost mages complain that their DPS is low, they can choose a different spec that deals more, so their role representation is a better measure.
Warriors were also struggling in the DPS representation (and terribly so in Prot), but Fury also got a similar buff as what ret is getting soon with changes they made to Ulduar gear. As a DPS, warriors are still significantly better represented than Ret in the hardest of content.
Prot could use a similarly focused buff given that is their only tank spec option and it is woefully underused.
Yes but your role that you claim is in such a dire situation is as represented as our entire class in raids
Until you actually look at the hardest fights, where it flip flops HARD.
Such incredibly strong ret bias from you. Ret and warrior both do not ramp up until ICC. Ret is as represented as the ENTIRE warrior class, that is 3 specs and 2 roles, and ret is as represented as all of them. Yet warrior have to suffer the entire expansion because they do slightly more dmg than ret does? Arms is basically not taken to raids anymore because it is easily beaten by almost every other spec in the game. If a prot warrior is bought to a raid, then you don’t take a fury warrior. Our class competes for one spot across 2 roles, whilst ret competes for 1 spot for themselves, while there 2 other specs have 3 spots between them.
Looking at overall representation just shows that more people are playing ret than warrior. That’s not particularly compelling.
When you look at the harder content, where guilds are actively SELECTING what things are best helping them clear the content, not just the raiders that they have on hand, you see fury far exceed Ret’s representation.
So that means that statistically Fury is significantly overrepresented in actually challenging fights compared to their normal population and ret is significantly under represented in those same conditions.
The fact that Fury overcomes ret in representation in Algalon and 0 light yogg strengthens the argument that Fury is in a better place than ret is, because there are a LOT more ret paladins around, but somehow way more furies get in Algalon kills.
I can’t tell if you’re serious. This is possibly one of the worst takes I’ve ever heard. Ret is represented the same as an entire class… Why would ret deserve a buff over warrior when it is literally performing as well as an entire class over 3 specs and 2 roles?
Every class received this “buff” though, not just fury. It wasn’t just fury gear that was buffed, every single piece of gear in ulduar was buffed for every other class/spec, Fury may scale a little bit better then others, but its still not enough or be that noticeable, if noticeable at all due to everyone benefiting from that gear buff. If you count Ulduar gear as a buff to fury, then it was a buff to ret as well as every other spec and class in the game, so ret is getting two buffs now while fury is still only at one, and fury is still at almost the bottom of dps.
And as Yama is saying, the class as a whole is struggling while the only part of Paladin that was struggling was ret, and they are buffing ret, so why not fury as well? And you can’t go solely off the last boss of a raid when in the rest of the raid, the class is struggling for a spot, where as paladin as a whole has at least 2 if not 3 guaranteed spots for the entire raid. And “fury will be good in ICC” is not a good argument, because Ret will be good in ICC too, so again, why does ret deserve a buff now and not fury when they have at least 2 guaranteed spots for almost all their specs in raids (and will most likely be getting a third now that ret is being buffed), when warrior as a whole only has one, if that, most of the time.
And I’m not attacking ret here, I’m happy that ret pallys are getting the buff, they were suffering heavily and needed a little boost, but so does fury.
And as I’ve said a few times before, I’m not asking for a massive buff, I’m asking for TG dmg penalty to be removed to help fury now, I’m not saying to keep TG like this for the rest of the game, just make it like that for now, then once fury ramps up in ICC (If it actually does), they can add the penalty back in if fury starts getting out of hand.
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Sims are showing assassination is scaling better than fury too. This guy seems to think that fury is going to actually be a good dps spec in ulduar gear (let alone failing to realise you need to be in full ulduar HM bis before being even remotely competitive, fury will still be near the bottom).
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Yup, most of the arguments here are using a fury warrior in full ulduar bis as an example against a buff, which is not a good indication. Its going to take an extremely long time to get full HM bis, and the chances of most fury warriors getting that full ulduar HM bis by the time ToGC comes out are gonna be low.
And most classes are scaling really well off these gear buffs, so fury benefitting from these gear buffs won’t be that noticeable since everyone else is too.
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