2009 was WotLK my friend.
Yes, hybrid has a very different meaning in retail and WotLK. I’m not debating that.
Classic has a different definition.
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He’s speaking about how they apply the hybrid tax. Up through to WOTLK.
You’re really going to try to argue this?
Yes, I am saying that there is a different definition of hybrid in Classic.
Warriors are a pure melee class, just like Rogues.
In TBC and beyond, when classes became defined by their “spec” rather than their class, that’s when “hybrid” started to have that different meaning.
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Wrong. They are the default tanks with currently-overtuned melee dps
If you have 3+ warlocks how would curse of shadows not make it in the top 16 debuffs, or even shadow weaving for that matter? (Problem here is more whether it’s worth bringing a spriest or utility priest, not shadow weaving vs the debuff limit.)
Because you don’t bring 3 Warlocks when we have the debuff limit! Why would you drop a Warrior or Mage for a class that does a fraction of their damage? Just for a minor buff to a class that does less damage than them, even under perfect conditions?
That’s my entire point!
There is not.
What is a hybrid tax? Why is there a hybrid tax?
I’m going to sticky this since it gets brought up more than almost any other topic.
We only recognize two types of classes for PvE purposes:
Can respec to fulfill a different role = hybrid.
Cannot respec to fulfill a different role = pure.The roles are tank, healing and damage.
In our design, having two healing trees (priest) or half a tanking tree (druid) or three dps trees (DK) does not put these classes in different categories of hybridness. A hybrid is a hybrid.
It’s the roles that your class lets you do that is important, not how those roles are organized into talent trees. The paladin is one way to organize the trees (a tanking tree, healing tree and melee dps tree) but not the only way. However, there is a reason we don’t do this for every class – it would be boring.
In our design, the pure dps classes (hunter, mage, warlock and rogue) should do slightly higher dps than hybrid damage-dealers all things being equal. All things are rarely equal. Player skill, gear, raid comp, latency, random luck and most importantly the specifics of the encounter will often favor one class, spec or player over another.
The reason we want pures to so slightly higher damage is that pures can only fulfill one role. If your guild or raid has no more need for damage-dealers, there is no way for these classes to raid with you. By contrast, the six other classes always have the option to respec for another role either temporarily or for the long haul.
The Blizzard definition of hybrid in this context has nothing to do with whether you can perform multiple roles within a single fight or even within a single raid. It has more to do with the potential for your class to ever fulfill more than one role.
Likewise, the Blizzard definition of hybrid in this context has nothing to do with the power of certain buffs or class synergy. We want all classes to bring useful tools to the raid.
Just because you’re not interested in doing anything other than damage does not qualify your class as a pure as long as the option to change roles is there. For the pure classes the only option is to reroll. We think the pure classes would start to disappear over time, at least from high-end raiding, if there was no advantage for being a pure. The hybrid advantage is flexibility.
There is not a “5% rule” that says pures should be 5% higher than hybrids in every circumstance. Again, most of the time other factors such as the encounter specifics will have a greater effect. The “5% rule” was either something a player suggested that stuck or something we threw out at some point as an example. It isn’t a hard and fast rule. We aren’t going to provide a hard and fast rule because players would then attempt to invoke that rule every time they thought their damage was too low instead of exploring other ways to improve their character’s performance.
This philosophy largely evolved in Wrath of the Lich King and is the design we plan on carrying forward to Cataclysm. In vanilla WoW, every class typically had one role. In BC, we tried to promote other roles for some classes, but we still didn’t make everyone play by the same rules. Warriors, and I hate to pick on them, were intended to be the best tank while also deliver dps that we would now label as competitive with rogues. By contrast, druids, paladins, priests and shaman were intended to be competitive healers, but have dramatically lower dps than pures and warriors. Likewise, druids, paladins, priests and shaman brought many unique and powerful buffs that were intended to compensate for their low dps. We spread these buffs out to a much greater degree in Lich King, and plan on refining that implementation for Cataclysm.
TLDR:
Hybrid = can respec to fulfill a different role (damage, tanking, or healing).
Hybrid != can fill multiple roles at the same time.
Hybrid != has awesome, amazing buffs or utility.
Hybrid != pure. Beyond that, there are no shades of gray among hybrids.In general, we ask that players focus their feedback more on class mechanics and what is fun or not fun about the classes and not simply on “My dps is too low so you must buff me.”[/quote]
So you mean to tell me that even though the dev team was 90+% the exact same human beings by the time Wrath came out, and this is being said by the Lead Systems Designer which was a position he held in original Vanilla, that he’s telling us a view on definitions and words that is completely different to how they defined those words and terms 1-2 expansions ago?
Bro if you believe that I got some land I wanna sell ya.
Again, this entire conversation took place in 2009. That is not Classic WoW. That was WotLK.
In Classic, the classes are defined by their… class. Not their spec.
He held the exact same position on the team in both expansions, and literally outlines how they thought of it in Vanilla.
In vanilla WoW, every class typically had one role.
Yes. Warriors have one role in Classic. They do melee damage.
Warriors, unlike Rogues, survive with heavy armor. Rogues survive by dropping threat and using evasion.
Your perspective.
We’re having this discussion on Blizzard’s terms, in which case, warriors are hybrids.
You’re using the WotLK definition of hybrid, which I agree is different. Never denied it was different. Your discussion with Blizzard doesn’t say “oh we thought Warriors had 2 roles in Classic so we nerfed them” either.
In Classic, Warriors are a pure melee class. That’s it. End of discussion.
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You’re just being daft for the fun of it, at this point.
The word “hybrid” as it applies to WoW is the same as it’s ever been in WoW. Period.
Yes, tanking
And how do Warriors hold aggro to tank in Classic?
…by doing damage?
Could you imagine if Warriors couldn’t do any damage? Neither would anyone else!
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Taunting and +threat modification. Word of God denies your pserver fantasy.
Most raid bosses are immune to taunt.
You are essentially asking for Blizzard to completely re-balance the game for bonus threat abilities to be significantly stronger than they currently are, while also nerfing Warrior damage. Is that right? You want to completely re-design a class? In Classic WoW?
Corruption was unimportant and immolate sometimes a waste of a GCD in SoM.
Wrong. Every single Warlock on the top parses played SM/Ruin. Not only did they use Corruption and Immolate and a curse, but they also used Siphon Life! 4 debuff slots for a single Warlock! That’s in addition to Shadow Weaving and Curse of Shadows.
SM/Ruin isn’t even a viable build on Era. They play Demonology instead.
I’m explaining why they were good in phase 1 of SoM and it’s not the debuff limit.