The irony is it will make the content harder. Presently you can compensate for deaths by doing large, efficient pulls and having high DPS to make up for time lost.
In a system where there’s a static death amount, once you reach it, you’re finished.
1 Like
Your argument makes no sense cause regardless is they time the 10 or not they still get the reward and max vault item. Also if they removed the timer they were going to replace it with deaths which there could be an argument of it being harder than a timer. Theres also no way to balance top tier mythic+ rewards in the first place cause its spammable content and completely different from raid so how can you say what should and shouldnt deserve rewards. Mythic+ has always been this way and in some expansions were easier to get top rewards. Also why would i expect rewards from mythic raid if i never step foot in there that makes zero sense. Thats like saying i should get pvp gear from doing pve content.
1 Like
Yes, they get the reward, but their key gets knocked down to a +9. Meaning they can’t just re-run the next dungeon for 2 rewards and vault crest. Remove the timer and then it becomes significantly easier.
How is it harder without a timer? You think it’s harder to cc 2/3 mobs and kill them one by one?
There is. By making top vault keys the same difficulty as early Mythic raids. We have been seasons where they are extremely close.
You don’t seem to understand the argument. Let’s say a person is a raider. Should they expect to get Mythic Raid rewards when they can only do Normal? Why is it that anyone who steps foot in M+ should feel entitled to get to the top?
Umm you think if they make a change they are going to leave it the same? Of course they are going to scale things up to make it harder. Plus bosses are a check you cant cheese so if they have to cc mobs in the first place what makes you think they would easily kill the boss.
Yes so how do you propose them to measure that difficulty. These are 2 separate content that require different things. Plus its way easier to find a group of 5 people that are competent versus 20.
What do you mean to the top. We already established that other expansions were easier to get top gear in mythic+ and its always been this way. If you want that to change then mythic+ needs to be different than what it is now.
1 Like
Even if they scale it harder then we run into the issue of people waiting for full cds for every pull. This turns into a dungeon crawl that players consistently have shown they are against. M+ runs show time and again that the shortest dungeons are most preferred.
It’s already measurable by looking at the percentiles of characters timing all dungeons at the top rewarding key level and cross referencing that to mythic raiders. M+ is always going to be more rewarding in the low and middle tracks because it is infinitely farmable, but that’s offset by relying on the vault for the top loot.
They won’t be apples to apples, but that doesn’t mean they can’t be closely balanced in terms of difficulty equaling reward.
Top rewards.
No it hasn’t actually. TWW S1 +10s has been significantly easier than +20s in DF S1 and SL S1. The season that was significantly easier was DF S3, an outlier. The problem here is that you are comparing S1 difficulty with end-expansion difficulty.
M+ bosses aren’t the challenge. They’re the break between trash pulls, which is where almost all of the difficulty in M+ lives.
1 Like
I disagree. Not killing the boss fast enough are where the checks are in the time.
This isn’t true unless you are going in high keys with specific bosses that phase. The large majority of the challenge in M+ comes from the trash.
We don’t need to turn M+ into 5-man raids.
1 Like
Everyone has the right to be wrong.
This isn’t true for basically any key level that the overwhelming majority of players will experience.
Yes im wrong when tyrannical weeks were always known to be harder. I dont know where you get your experience from but it seems like we play a separate game entirely.
1 Like
Except for the highest level of keys, tyrannical weeks were “known to be harder” by a community that fails at simple boss mechanics. Tyrannical wasn’t harder because of the dps check, it was harder because people were dying to mechanics they could be healed through on fortified.
For competent groups in key levels where most people play, tyrannical was the push week.
Besides which, tyrannical now is nothing like it used to be, which means everyone should be understanding that trash is the challenge in M+. Bosses are literally a few minutes where you can relax and just focus one target with minimal mechanics. Bosses are a break.
I get my experience from completing all of the portals reasonably early for the past 9 seasons. If you’re anywhere near the 0.01% title group, then yes, we play a different game. If not, I don’t know what to tell you, except M+ has been about the trash for as long as I’ve been playing it.
1 Like
This was true in early Shadowlands, but was nerfed in SL, again in DF, and again for TWW. It’s no longer harder than Fortified.
We will need data to back that up but people still do struggle more on tyrannical weeks. Whether you agree or disagree the data would prove that.
Regardless if its mostly failed mechanics as the contributor it still makes it the difficult part of the dungeon for most people. So it still stands true that tyrannical is still the harder week. Even if they balanced it better theres still data out there to back it up just more difficult to pull.
Tyrannical weeks do not exist anymore at +10.
Sure people might struggle, but not in any significant way.
No, because people failing to play correctly isn’t the same as something being hard. When groups play the bosses correctly and play the trash correctly, the trash is, by a large margin, where the highest skill expression is going. It’s where people are working the hardest.
Just because a large number of people can’t handle dodging a boss mechanic while starting at the meter, that doesn’t mean the boss is hard. And just because those same people zug through trash while better players handle all of the mechanics for them doesn’t mean trash is easy.
Every week is simultaneously fortified and tyrannical, so no, that doesn’t stand true at all.
You need to follow the whole conversation cause you are taking a snippet of it and misunderstanding everything. Yes i know +10 it doesnt exist.
I get it man its not black and white but taking everything into account one is more difficult than the other. Whether its by a small margin things arent perfectly equal.
It was said somewhere earlier, but I’d like to see keys under 10 have just a death counter and no timer with 10+ reverting back to the current timer system. This gives lower keys a pass/fail impetus while also letting players learn the mechanics and stop to strategize and communicate. Keys above 9 are about the challenge and you can reasonably assume players know the dungeons at a harder difficulty level.
I’d rather see both used, since people will be trying to get through as fast as possible with as few deaths as possible. Just focusing on these 2 for the time being:
- Timer: pretty much as it is now as far as what makes a 1 chest, 2 chest, or 3 chest
- death count, and just using simple numbers, like 100, to better illustrate the %
a. 40 or more deaths left=3 chest
b, 20-39 deaths left=2 chest
c. 19 or less deaths left=1 chest
The final “score” would, ideally, be the following:
- 3 chest requirements on both=3 chest, and same for 2 chest on both, ect
- difference of 1 between them=chest of the higher, key increase of the lower
- difference of 2 between them=key increase of the lower, chest of the lower with a chance of extra loot or what would be a chest of the one in between
- finishing over one but not the other (101 deaths or timer ran out) = key remains the same, chest based on the preceding formulas
- finishing over both is the standard decrease as it is now