The timer and deaths in combination is the only metric if a dungeon can be counted a success or not. No one would say what a nice run to a dungeon with 40 deaths but still timed, but also no one would count a dungeon a success if it’s completed without deaths after six hours.
The metric used should reflect if a dungeon was a success of the dungeon or not. So timer and deaths in combination should the the benchmark for determining success
Yeah, so what we’ve got
As someone who is neither hardcore, nor casual I’ll say that the last thing I want to do is extend the time dungeon runs take.
It’s my personal belief that the tanking/healing experience could use some work Via making them less difficult to encourage more people to do it, and that’s really my only beef with the current dungeon design (minus artistically the last couple xpac dungeons have done nothing for me, but that’s another type of topic).
It kind of depends how you do it in relation to +1 to +3 a key. In some ways a death counter would absolutely destroy pugging and put even more stress on the healer above all else.
I do not wish to become a frothing maniac who yells at the group nonstop.
It is and it’s trending down, which is exactly what you proved.
Delves have been widely successful and popular and it’s common sense that millions of subs engage in solo (like delves) content than in group content (such as dungeons or raids). M+ is not even a part of the actual game it’s a mini-game feature. I would wager pet battles see more participation than M+ and you don’t see players complaining about pet battles with hundreds of monthly forum posts about how bad M+ is either. Even on other game forums, there full of complaints about how awful M+ is. It’s the worst feature in WoW and it’s also the most toxic and poisonous because of the timer and the “speedrun/go fast” mentality, which was never part of any MMORPG until Legion. Sure people tried to pull more before Legion but it’s apples and oranges. The amount of tanks that are not able to play like their favorite streamer tank is off the charts and it’s a big part of the reason there are so many broken keys. Tanks overpulling thinking it’s a zerg fest with zero communication or understanding of how many mobs AoE spells hit and when they lose effectiveness is staggering and it’s bleeding into other parts of the game (such as raid trash).
The bottom line is M+ is awful and it’s overwhelmingly unpopular right now and the participation is trending down, which is why Blizzard is discussing replacing the timer with a death counter or maybe even using a soft timer and a death counter, sort of a hybrid.
I appreciate you continuing to respond and keep these threads going. The more people see how toxic the pug M+ community is the more likely there will be a change. For those M+'s who have dedicated guilds/groups or regular rl friends, it’s not toxic and I get that. But that is a very small group. The majority of players (like me) would like to engage in M+ and stopped recently are not playing M+ for an achievement or a title or even the rewards. That stuff is just dressing. We play M+ because it can be fun. But right now the playerbase is extremely toxic and that is fueled because of the timer as I explained with a pug tank thinking they need to pull an entire wing of 32 mobs when it would be faster to break that into 4 pulls of 8 mobs. Pug players are not playing around CDs or coordinating. Most of the time, it’s que in and go without any communication with a tank who thinks they need to go fast instead of play efficiently. It’s common sense that if you consistently drive recklessly over the speed limit you will crash. Same idea for pug M+ and then comes the finger-pointing, the arguments, and the namecalling. The entire feature is toxic and not worth playing until they get rid of the timer.
you keep saying this but it isnt true so how about you stop lying and maybe people will be more open to your topics.
It isn’t. Lmao. Are you even looking at the data? I get it, you are delusional and anything that goes against what your propped up streamers say is wrong.
Let me ask you a simple question. Is everything a streamer says correct? Yes or no.
It doesn’t matter if it’s been “widely successful and popular”. There’s zero usable metrics there. Unless you get hard numbers then you can’t claim that it has more participation or is more popular than M+.
Lmao man really thinks he knows what hes talking about.
It doesnt. It encourages spending 10 minutes between every pull for lust though.
Everytime someone says something like this i cant help but imagine you idiots just shaking like chihuahuas at the thought of seeing the M+ timer during runs. Its a game. If youre stressed by the timer, the game mode wasnt meant for you. It doesnt need to be changed for some weirdo it wasnt meant for. Delves exist as a time less option as do raids if you want companions.
There would be no new routes. There wouldnt even be strategy. Youd be pulling packs one at a time while ccing as many mobs as possible to keep them out of combat. You havent thought out a single aspect of this.
What coordination? There wouldnt be a need to heal as youd be minimizing the damage you take by keeping the mobs out of combat. CC? Hope you enjoy running rogues for the long duration stuns. Proper execution of mechanics? Youve already taken out all the potential mechanic combinations.
Out here acting like each M+ pack is a boss fight. Stop it. Its not for you. Youre being a full blown idiot.
We are talking to someone who has never stepped foot into M+ this season. Your type is the worst. Talking when you dont even know what a keystone is.
Replacing the toxic timer with the delve death counter would be a big improvement for Mythic +.
The timer causes the toxic behavior. The timer causes pug tanks to overpull and brick keys, which leads to name-calling, finger-pointing, and rude toxic bad behavior.
Speed-running dungeons are not a problem for a guild group or a real-life friend group but those are extremely small % of the overall community. This 1% should not dictate an entire playstyle that is toxic and ineffective for the large majority of the pug player base.
Replacing the toxic timer with the delve death counter will result in player participation booming for Mythic +.
If the timer is a problem for you, you’re already failing the death count. The timer is a non-issue in successful runs.
This idea is half baked.
The timer is just an aggregate performance check. If they remove it, so you just imagine that they won’t be checking your performance in other ways?
It is true. Participation is trending down. Look at the data. M+ is a firestorm of negativity on this forum and others. A change should be made immediately.
Replacing the toxic timer with the delve death counter would be a big improvement for Mythic +.
The timer causes the toxic behavior. The timer causes pug tanks to overpull and brick keys, which leads to name-calling, finger-pointing, and rude toxic bad behavior.
Speed-running dungeons are not a problem for a guild group or a real-life friend group but those are extremely small % of the overall community. This 1% should not dictate an entire playstyle that is toxic and ineffective for the large majority of the pug player base.
Replacing the toxic timer with the delve death counter will result in player participation booming for Mythic +.
It is true. Look at the data.
Replacing the toxic timer with the delve death counter would be a big improvement for Mythic +.
The timer causes the toxic behavior. The timer causes pug tanks to overpull and brick keys, which leads to name-calling, finger-pointing, and rude toxic bad behavior.
Speed-running dungeons are not a problem for a guild group or a real-life friend group but those are extremely small % of the overall community. This 1% should not dictate an entire playstyle that is toxic and ineffective for the large majority of the pug player base.
Replacing the toxic timer with the delve death counter will result in player participation booming for Mythic +.
Making content easier does tend to do that, yes.
That isn’t the point I’m making. The timer isn’t an issue for me personally, I am not concerned with performance. My concern is fun and enjoyment. It’s a video game, not a sweaty prize money competition. The timer creates a toxic negative environment, which is bleeding all over other features in WOW. That is the problem and players are leaving M+ because of the toxicity created by the timer.
Replace the toxic timer with the delve death counter and M+ will boom in participation.
Repeating this over and over again will never make it true.
This is also not true. What you’re calling “Toxic behavior” is caused by a lot of different things, but primarily a disparity in the expectations of the the members of the group, which in itself is a very nuanced topic with a lot of variables.
You have a very simplistic view of all of this, which isn’t reflected by actual reality.
Sosari is a pug player. I am primarily a pug player in M+. The speed run isn’t a problem for a large portion of the pug community.
You say this because it’s what you want to happen, but it’s not supported by an understanding of the overall M+ community and the consequences that would result. You don’t understand the situation well enough to make blanket statements like this.
The data has been presented. It shows that your statement is false. Stop saying it’s trending down when it is clearly and obviously not.
| Season | Total Keys Completed | Season Length (Days) | Average Keys Per Day |
|---|---|---|---|
| BFA S1 | 13,425,411 | 140 | 95,895.79 |
| BFA S2 | 13,253,349 | 155 | 85,505.48 |
| BFA S3 | 13,671797 | 190 | 71,956.83 |
| BFA S4 | 29,679,366 | 237 | 125,229.39 |
| SL S1 | 16,311,634 | 203 | 80,352.88 |
| SL S2 | 20,257,547 | 232 | 87,317.01 |
| SL S3 | 19,755,846 | 155 | 127,457 |
| SL S4 | 9,683,754 | 85 | 113,926.52 |
| DF S1 | 36,259,005 | 140 | 258,992.89 |
| DF S2 | 27,230,415 | 183 | 148,800.08 |
| DF S3 | 34,423,223 | 161 | 213,808.84 |
| DF S4 | 11,212,955 | 91 | 123,219.29 |
| TWW S1 | 20,016,960 | 93 | 215,236.13 |
TWW S1 from 9/17/24-12/18/24. These are, again, not including +2-11 keys since they were absorbed into M0.
You seriously need to stop trying to say that M+ is on a downward trend. It’s only behind DF S1.
This is also something you can’t claim because you don’t even participate in M+.
WoW is supposed to be easy. It took all the features that were hard and challenging from other MMORPG’s and made them easier and more accessible to everyone. M+ is a dumpster fire of challenge that has no place in the game in it’s current state. It breeds the most toxic arrogant behavior at any time throughout the games history and that is saying something because there used to be pvp servers and that was really toxic.
Replace the toxic timer with the delve death counter and the result will be a booming level of participation for M+. No reason to assume it will be easy. There are plenty of games that have death counters and it’s not easy. It will still have it’s challenges and be competitive but the toxic speed mentality won’t bleed all over the rest of the game.
Personally I think ccing trash mobs and taking packs one at a time to minimise risk produces a much less enjoyable environment. It’s time consuming, it’s boring, it makes the dungeon feel monotonous, and it removes what I actually enjoy about doing the content. Weighing up efficiency against risk.
If there is no downside for reducing risk, you will simply play in the most risk averse way possible to maximise odds of success.
You self reported that all of the tiny amount of keys you ran in the past were filled with carries who were over geared and over skilled for the key. Obviously those keys are going to speed run through and care less about leaving you behind. You are basing your entire argument around your experience in M+ being carried, not progressing with like players.
Replacing the toxic timer with the delve death counter would be a HUGE improvement for Mythic +.
Thank you. Trending down. S4’s is always low.
DFS3 to TWWS1 is trending down.
Appreciate you proving my point yet again.
Replacing the toxic timer with the delve death counter will result in player participation booming for Mythic +.