Remove Shroud Of Concelement

[Dxun-thrall-1466857]

Rogue is the new DH, time to spread the nerf butter.

[Sosari-shadowmoon]

@Humanitydh-area-52

And with current numbers it would be fury warrior or WW monks or DH all 3 do great dmg

Looking at the data, Monks would be in the #1 slot for their combination utility and dps throughput if rogues lost shroud. Otherwise, the other classes numbers would be represented higher than it already is.

The reason I brought up +15 keys before is because the game was scaled for 15s. At those key levels, the classes are fairly represented well.

@Humanitydh-area-52

Instead of right now its ROGUE. no matter what the tank is and what the 2 ranged spots are the melee spot is rogue. You can go look at almost all the top tanks of each class and see what melee they run with. All of them except one choose to run with rogues.

Looking at the leaderboard, almost all of them are Rogue, Mage, Boomy. Like I was saying though, even if rogues lost their slot, Monks would take over.

[Humanitydh-area-52]

Monk data is screwed from the pre nerf time. Also someone will always be top right? But the difference between WW and DH or Fury wouldnt be as huge as shroud makes it.

WWs and Havoc grps could do same routes. one doesnt really make a route possible that another wouldnt.

The gap between shroud and other melee is way too big.

You’re saying WW would take over but thats just wrong you cant look at data like that. You’d want a magic buff if both ur ranged are casters and espacially if tank is already a brewmaster

for example.

Like you could just push keys with your friend who pumps instead of that friend needing to be a rogue just becuase shroud makes a route possible that is needed to time a key at that level

you understand what I mean?

[Amorix-illidan]

I agree, nerf DH

[Sosari-shadowmoon]

I understand what you mean, but a lot of your points hinge on the tank being something other than a DH. They still make up 55% of high keys and completely dominate the leader board. I just think it wouldn’t have the effect you think it will.

[Orthane-turalyon]

This is someone who should be listened to regarding M+. I remember talking to you a lot in BFA and just like this expack your keys are crazy.

[Hezzlocks-khazgoroth (Hezzlocks)]

I feel like removing the utility of one class isn’t the answer. The answer should be to improve the utility of the classes that don’t easily get into m+

[Humanitydh-area-52]

@Sosari-shadowmoon

I understand what you mean, but a lot of your points hinge on the tank being something other than a DH. They still make up 55% of high keys and completely dominate the leader board. I just think it wouldn’t have the effect you think it will.

That is a seperate tank balance issue AND that data is also screwd cuz of pre nerf vengence.

There are teams doing the highiest keys with every tank other than like blood DK.

Most tanks are in a good place right now except prot pala and espacially blood DK

even that balanced and dps balance in general wouldnt mean much except for teams going for world 1st.

The difference in tank balance or dps balance can be made up by skill. Like if WW spec does 5% more than Havoc but you know a beast havoc player. You can play with the havoc and still push keys like 1 level below the very top. ( speaking from xp from last season my grp did 28s with out prot warrior or rogue or hpal )

Shroud on the other hand makes routes possible which far exceed anything difference dps balance could make.

If you didnt have 19s timed I wouldnt even waste my time but Im giving you the respect becuase unlike most ppl on these forums who havent even timed a 10, you have something to show for on the topic you’re commenting on.

So I really need you to comprehend the points im trying to make.

Awakened was the best affix cuz it nulified shroud. It made it so you could just push keys with your friends and still reach extremely high ( 1 - 2 levels below very top )

Shroud makes routes possible which bring more vallue than any dps difference can bring

[Humanitydh-area-52]

@Hezzlocks-khazgoroth

I feel like removing the utility of one class isn’t the answer. The answer should be to improve the utility of the classes that don’t easily get into m+

Sounds like something a rogue main m+ player would say.

[Humanitydh-area-52]

@Orthane-turalyon

This is someone who should be listened to regarding M+. I remember talking to you a lot in BFA and just like this expack your keys are crazy.

Thanks. but they really arent crazy cuz I havent tried this season due to multiple reasons ( irl ) and the fact that i dont enjoy current dungeon design ( aoe caps / anti aoe dungeon design )

AND even if i did decide to push keys I would have to compete against rogues for a spot which just isnt possible in current meta.

[Dalfurane-frostmourne (Dalfurane)]

@Humanitydh-area-52

Sounds like something a rogue main m+ player would say.

Question: What do you think when the name of the class Rogue comes to your mind?

An expert assassin who deals damage from the shadows often turning themselves invisible

or

A hello kitty flower seller who can’t turn invisible to save their life?

[Hezzlocks-khazgoroth (Hezzlocks)]

@Humanitydh-area-52

@Hezzlocks-khazgoroth

I feel like removing the utility of one class isn’t the answer. The answer should be to improve the utility of the classes that don’t easily get into m+

Sounds like something a rogue main m+ player would say.

It kind of does, doesn’t it. Terrible shame I’m not one. I’m a warlock main, which isn’t awful at m+ but also certainly not meta. I guess what I’m saying is…

Gib buf plz bliz

[Hpellipsis-whisperwind (Hpellipsis)]

They could bring back baseline smoke bomb and give it it’s old 10% Dr back to replace shroud. That’s something unique to rogue that’d have genuine dungeon applications, that doesn’t also have the sort of impact shroud does on routing and overall viability of the spec.

Tbf another large part of the problem is invis pots being used to skip prides specifically, meaning you can’t use invis pots to skip trash, which would lessen the need for a rogue.

Hopefully with the new affix in 9.1, even if nothing changes in terms of utility spread, the ability to use invis pots to skip trash packs again will help balance out melee.

[Humanitydh-area-52]

10000 iq AND that would also help them have a raid spot in raids.

[Tamalpais-blackrock]

This thread proves only one thing: Tinkerers need a buff.

[Peexee-kelthuzad]

The fact that it comes from DH - the class that has THE highest representation in M+…lmao.

Rogue main here.

Clearly you never played a rogue, or never played with a good rogue. Let me break it down to you.

• Shroud is not OP. But it allows the group to freely pot without worrying 5m CD.
• Other than shroud, we got almost no group-utility. We can’t even self heal!
• But we do bring some incombat utility.:

1. We do have best CC chains
2. We have insane mobility that allows to do things, run to interrupt, dodge mechanics.
3. We have Numbing - that reduces AA speed of mobs by 15%
4. We have Crippling - that gives perma 50% speed reduction.
5. Just like some other classes, we bring hard/long CC.
6. We got Evasion and Cloak - that allows us to mitigate some really bad mechanics to make it easier for healers and even soak certain mechanics.

So, if you are going to take away the ONLY group utility we have, give us something else. Lust. I will take Lust. Thank you. But also take away Flamestrike from mages. Starsurge from boomies. Leap/Jump from DH. Ring from Monks. Then we can have a talk.

Or, better yet, make us A-tier dps. Make me do 15k uncapped AoE like boomies and mages. But also take away treants, mass roots, and TW from mages.

[Hpellipsis-whisperwind (Hpellipsis)]

@Peexee-kelthuzad

So, if you are going to take away the ONLY group utility we have, give us something else. Lust. I will take Lust. Thank you.

I did suggest cataclysm-wod smoke bomb. Group DR and a temporary LoS zone to help with grouping casters and as a pseudo interrupt. I don’t wanna leave rogues with ‘nothing’, though I do think you’re drastically downplaying the value of your combat utility for the sake of this thread.

Also thanks for reminding me the drums nerf was stupid.

[Nippyss-barthilas (Nippyss)]

How about we don’t nerf a class so the tiny bubble of people running 20+ keys dictate the rest of how the game is built

I think I was pretty much refusing to use shroud when I was doing M+ on a rogue because the amount of bananas that move out of it and agro stuff is nuts in pugs

[Hpellipsis-whisperwind (Hpellipsis)]

How about we give rogues things they’ll find useful at all levels of play, as well as solo, instead of one piece of game breaking utility that only really has an impact in high m+ keys?

[Gorgouge-emerald-dream]

Remove shroud.
Make crimson tempest baseline.