Remove M+ Keys

[Foxmulder-the-venture-co]

@Grizzle-eredar

Why do i need to slog through 60 keys just to get to my 7-8 range to farm hero track gear in the first week when im obviously capable?

because you can’t function group finder correctly?

If it takes you 60 keys to get to +7/8 that’s a huge you problem

[Grizzle-eredar]

@Foxmulder-the-venture-co

If it takes you 60 keys to get to +7/8 that’s a huge you problem

Context is important. Go back and read why it would take me 60 keys to get to that 7/8 range

[Acturis-amanthul]

Let me start my saying I dont know what has changes since i was doing m+ back in leigion. But that felt right to me. M 1-10 was bases on #of deaths before the key died. After 10, i cant remwmber if a timer was added. And ive been squelched for my unpopular opinions many times. But it sounds like tour all crying because Blizz has presented the challenge, and tou cant pug it. Yes im a casual, and im quite happy being so. But all ive seen on the forums from those that like M+ is “im forced to do delves” or “your forcing us to raid” amd its there but lesser spouted “tourw mKing us pvp” and not to leave out the pvpers “pvp is dead cause youre forcing us to pve” pvp is an whole other kettle of fish.
Let me adress my points before i get squashed again.
PvP i hear you what the pvp community needs is toutorial just like the ogre isle has for pve… you know what i mean.
Delves are for solo and or casuals… let us have that. Theres a cap… not like casuals are gonna threaten world firsts.
M+ this is where it gets curly. There should be death counts up to 15. Then kick the timers in. M15 should be 50 to 100 lvl higher (dont quote my numbers, im just spitballing) than delves. Delve ilvl stops equal to mythic 10.
Raids start at the same ilvl as mythic 10.
Either that or shot can the whole system and go delves give heroics. Can mythic plus and go mythics give delve +5 ilcl amd raids give mythic +5 ilvl. But whatch me get squelched again cause its not the gamplay thats the issue its that the vocal minority on the forums that mKe everything worse for the casuals. It all just smells of gearscore to me… the comunity never recovered from that cancer.
Its not the “welfare epics” of wrath… but thats whennit started. Its the “i have this gear so im wntitlednto more” all the while your oblivious to what made this game great… it wasnt the playsylw and challenges of classic… the community was great… back then…
Now you fi.d a guild… your lucky if you find one that isnt a cesspool causewhen youre pulling from a reject pile… guess what youre gonna get.

[Oniana-lightnings-blade (Oniana)]

i won’t say remove it because i know other people like it, but keys are the primary reason i will not engage in m+

unlocking once is fine but i am not doing ongoing chores to access that mode. i got ksm once and that was enough of that for me

[Kontiki-terenas]

@Beki-dalaran

A lot of players are talking about removing M+ key depletion.

i am for that with conditions:

• no depletion for completion, even if not timed.
• a disband option without depletion
• 1-3 charges before depletion

[Thugbug-dalaran]

Because part of the allure to m+ are the lead boards. Getting rid of it completely I think would cause people to quit more to the middle of the season than the end.

The number of 12-13 keys timed by people who don’t need loot proves this.

[Dowof-bloodhoof]

@Grizzle-eredar

all because YOU struggle with a timer? No thanks

I don’t think that’s the point Op is trying to make, i believe that they’re saying we should just be able to walk in to the dungeon and pick the level of without relying on rng to bless us with the dungeon we need

I also agree with the removal of key depletion. But no keystones and we’d have probably 0 diversity in keys being run for 99% of the wow population, everyone would be farming the same “farm” dungeons. One could argue that this is a failure of blizz tuning and I would agree with that as well

[Dowof-bloodhoof]

@Dracarian-medivh

I think M+ should work like Torghast.

• Have the Group in Mythic difficulty
• Walk in
• Click the pedestal
• Get a Torghast like drop down
• Highest key completed in the group decides the highest “key” unlocked
• Select it and ready up

I’ve thought the same in the past this would also be my ideal, or even just a removal of key depletions

Anything could happen to cause a key to deplete and the punishment is what leads to hostility and resentment towards players. A removal of the depletion system also allows regular players to take chances on newer players rather than only those who are overqualified to avoid depletion

[Dracnoxas-stormrage]

Why did this need another thread post?

[Grizzle-eredar]

@Dowof-bloodhoof

I don’t think that’s the point Op is trying to make

I was replying to someone different than the OP.

[Acturis-amanthul]

Think of it this way. M+ to about 10 is puggable… right
Delves give about the same… give or take…
Its almost like Blizz are saying you need a coordinated group to progress, and youre gettimg aggro that you cant facreroll and pug it.
Where have i see that before…
Original BC… Original wrath raiding…
Seeing this as more of a you problem than a game design one.
But thats just one mans opinion.

[Dracarian-medivh]

@Dracnoxas-stormrage

Why did this need another thread post?

More importantly, if it bothered you so much, why the “look at me” response?

[Dracnoxas-stormrage]

I didnt say it bothered me. Was just simply asking a question.

[Dracarian-medivh]

That is not a question on this forum. The answer is always “I made this thread for attention even though there are 163 other threads on the same topic because I do not want my opinion lost in a thread that either dies, or moves so fast no one will see it”. Your “question” was a thinly veiled mod-like post where you are basically telling the OP they never should have made the thread because there are 163 others just like it. I know, because I have used the exact same post for that very reason. So feigning ignorance is not a pretty shade.

[Sôsari-dalaran]

Yes there’s a purpose and reason for a key. They stated that they don’t want players to be able to spam run a specific dungeon with their own key for loot or vault.

@Sôsari-dalaran

1) Key Charges / Key Depletion:

• It’s clear that key depletion is a major point of contention with the player base; however I have always defended that key depletion serves a vital role systematically even though it have a negative impact on the individual. The frequent argument to remove depletion completely will cause severe consequences especially for the pug community.
• • Score inflation is already an issue where players are in key ranges they are not ready for. We can all agree that score is a major part of the vetting process when pugging and score inflation as the season goes on makes it less and less reliable. A large reason for this is because of the crest system and higher skilled players dropping down in difficulty and carrying the key holder. At first glance this is mutually beneficial. The keyholder gets score and an upgraded key while the higher skilled player gets crests. The same is true for the max vault keys.
• • • I bring this up because it directly correlates to the foreseeable issue should keys never deplete. If it is already happening now, it will happen ten fold if keys if players are able to hold onto the same key no matter how many times they fail it. This will cause a major disruption to the pug community because there will be more and more keys posted that are going to fail. Players will continuously post their key until a group is able to carry them while wasting time for everyone else.
• • In addition to score inflation, we would see new exploits and toxic behaviors that once again would mainly effect the pug community in the form of kicking. Currently, the major issue that keeps being discussed are players leaving keys; however, no one is being kicked because there’s zero gains from doing so.
• • • Should keys not deplete, we will see a new meta of players continuing to leave and also keyholders now kicking players after the first few pulls for whatever reason. This is a net-negative for pugs.
• The only positive for keys not depleting is that they key holder can try again while all of these additional exploits and issues are introduced.

Solution:

• Add 2 or 3 charges to each key.
• • This allows a limited amount of attempts which benefits the key holder, because things do happen and it values their time trying to progress.
• • It also puts a hard limit on the potential issues listed above. Players could still be kicked, but much less likely if they only get 2 or 3 attempts.

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2) Random Key Generator

• Pugs and even groups find themselves with keys they don’t need for progression. Yes, they can just run it anyway to get a new key, but it comes back to valuing the time of the player. This is especially important for DPS and off-meta players because they have a much harder time getting accepted. I also remember back in Shadowlands where Blizzard made it a point to say that key RNG is here to stay because they don’t want players to farm specific dungeons with their own key.

Solution:

• Randomly generate 2 or 3 dungeons where the key will work.
• • This still introduces RNG to the system that Blizzard wanted.
• • It prevents players from farming the same dungeon with their own key.
• • It provides DPS and off-meta players a higher probability of getting a key that they need for progression.
• • It even helps teams so it’s less likely that everyone has the same key or 2.

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3) Dinars for Every Season:

• It’s clear that the player base loves the Dinar system every time it is introduced late into the expansion. The confusing part is why hold onto a system that is almost universally liked for only a fraction of the expansion. This would provide players access to gear as a form of bad-luck prevention. This doesn’t mean to give every player the top tier BiS item. It all depends on implementation.

Solution: credit to Hpellipsis

• Introduce 1 or 2 Dinars every .0.5 patch. This way it is naturally time-gated to allow players to experience the content without Dinars on launch, but allows players to get items who had bad RNG from the Vault or Drops.
• • The ability to purchase BiS items could have limitations so players can only buy items from content they have already completed or based on obtaining equivalent achievements. i.e. KSM-AoTC; KSH-CE.

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4) Catch-up Mechanics:

• It’s clear that WoW’s focus this expansion was to provide a better experience with alts by introducing Warbands and the ability to share a bank across the entire account. This was a great thing to focus on; however, the player experience has not been able to gain the intended outcome. Part of that is the excessive amount of Crests needed for crafting. In DF, I believe you only needed 60 crests to craft the top R5 piece which was increased by 50% for TWW for no apparent reason. This has a negative impact on the player’s experience who wants to play alts, but is daunted by the idea of having to farm 60+ dungeons mid-season. That’s also if you time all of them.

Solution:

• Increase crests drop for out-of-time runs. Completion runs only awarding 5 crests is not valuing the player’s time. Bring it up to the full amount, or at least 80%.
• Similar to the Dinar solution being introduced every .0.5 patch, double Crest drops since it is now mid-way through the season. This would encourage more players to invest time into alts which would also increase metrics of time played.
• Remove the crest cap at the .0.5 patch.
• Lower the crafted requirements back to 60.

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5) Interrupts and Stops:

• The change to stops not resetting CDs for casting units made a negative impact for pugs. Teams are still able to lock-down packs by using voice coms and being coordinated so the intended impact was not achieved. Instead it is only making it more difficult for the players who were already struggling. Another issue is wasted interrupts because other players use theirs or other stops at the same time. When two interrupts are used at least they are prevented from re-casting, but when it overlaps with a stop they just re-cast immediately.

Solution:

• Reintroduce CD resets for stunning, pulling, pushing, and blinding priority casts.
• Provide a CD reduction to overlapped interrupts.
• • Potentially 25% CDr for interrupts with 12s CDs or less and 50% for longer CDs.

[Profien-illidan (Profíen)]

OP suggested you need to unlock each level by level, so yeah you’ll be over 60 keys just to get to 8s.

[Doublloon-stormrage]

I think they should:

1. Remove key depletion entirely.
2. Remove timer requirements for dungeon completion.
3. Timers should be for cosmetic rewards & achievements only.
4. Completing a dungeon should reward the maximum amount of chests.

Depleting keys & timers cause players to be overly selective in who they recruit to join their group - which means that most everyone doesn’t get an invite to the dungeons that they are geared for. For that reason, I think that dungeons should just be a difficulty challenge & not based on beating a timer. No one wants key depletion - it’s essentially a waste of time.

[Dagrk-area-52]

Assuming all you say is true, how is that a problem?

Aside, the key system as it is implemented is the root of many issues with m+. This key system puts way too much emphasis on failure. It just adds to the toxic environment of m+. Groups would form faster and would be less toxic if you could redo a dungeon as many times as you wanted at any level you wanted. People would be less selective. We would not waste time trying to re-form / re-apply to groups because of an early wipe. Spending less time trying to form a group and more time actually playing is better.

If we could also get a matchmaking system that couldn’t be cheated, that would be huge. Short of this, proper IO information in game would be good (success rates, max dungeons, etc…)

[Doors-illidan]

@Beki-dalaran

Keys serve no purpose but artificially limit players’ choice of dungeon and levels.

Keys serve a very important purpose.

Player A hasn’t done a +10 SV for their portal yet but got a late season start. So player A lists a group for +10 SV.

Players B-E don’t want to do a +10 SV for their vault/crests because it’s harder than a DB or Mists. BUT there’s limited 10’s listed so they apply and just pray to get an invite to any +10.

If keys didn’t exist then LFG would be 99% DB/Mists.

[Shadygrove-draenor]

Who isn’t spamming the easiest key now for vault slots? Most of us still playing this season don’t need gear out of any particular dungeon on hero track. We’re farming crests and filling our vault.