This Right here.
They do add a 1hander component to the talent at some point (cata?) but 1H DW never really comes back after TG was implemented.
“The same applied to the ret buff” - AND YOU GOT IT.
There’s no defence for you after that. Buff warriors already Blizzard. Or give us battle res and innervate, we’d still be picked after feral druids everything else considered.
A good compromise would be to maybe add an effect to all Ulduar weapons into the t8 set bonus that remove titans grip penalty. That way warriors won’t have to wait until icc, and won’t be too powerful then either.
You’d think so, but they were one of the least used specs on Algalon before the buffs (fury had like 50% more kills than ret), so like I’ve been saying, it did not translate to real world practice.
Their utility is great on paper. It could be used very well in a raid, there’s just literally no need for it (which is mostly the fault of holy/prot).
It’s also Ret’s role as a damage spec, and our effective utility after bringing the good paladin specs in your 25 man, was also similarly poor.
But it is better, which is why I am happy that ret still averages under Fury. It just didn’t need to be 10% under Fury.
They bring more damage and stop your rogues from needing to expose so they can deal more damage, and they have a minor raid DPS cooldown, and a desirable health buff (although you only need 1 warrior for that).
And yet before the buffs, literally 50% more fury warriors were being brought to Algalon than ret, which is a fight where Ret utility is quite good. If ret isn’t even more desirable on the fight MOST suited to our utility, what is the reason to use them on other fights?
Ret would need holy and prot paladins trashed in order to make our utility less redundant for a raid.
Even after the buffs, there are far more DPS warriors getting Algalon kills on a weekly basis than ret, so clearly you aren’t being replaced.
“Don’t be mad about a class getting buffs, it doesn’t hurt you”
Signed: the only class mad about a class getting buffs.
Y’all are focusing on the wrong target. Being mad at rets for being buffed from last to last place is a bad look.
It’s much more reasonable to be upset about feral (another DPS class with plenty of utility) being buffed from fury levels to top tier. I agree with that complaint.
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Literally all speculation with no back up of information
I can make things up too!
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Except it isn’t made up, I went through the data before the ret buffs and made a lengthy post about it…
At the time, not only were fury warriors much more likely to have an Algalon kill relative to the numbers doing the raid than ret, the absolute number of them were much higher.
I still have that data saved… As of 2/6 when Algalon was still pretty cutting edge content and guilds were being the most picky about raid comps and fully evaluating what classes they brought for utilities…
286 / 160732 fury warriors
56 / 59811 arms warriors
71 / 34341 prot warriors
14 / 29167 gladiator warriors
171 / 127791 Ret paladins
Literally 2x the number of DPS warriors got Algalon kills relative to ret paladins by that point, so if DPS warrior is in such a bad place, what did that make rets? (I’m actually kind of amused that it was exactly 2x if you count fury and arms together. If you exclude arms, fury had a 67% advantage over ret)
Ret utility just flatly wasn’t enough to make ret useful enough to bring, even on the fight that DSac is MOST useful on. They preferred Fury by a large margin.
They still do, but by a smaller margin.
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Gee are we missing a bit of data there? I didn’t realise paladins could only run ret.
Let’s see the prot and holy numbers too buddy.
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I compared DPS vs DPS. It’s common knowledge that paladin has high representation on tanking and healing. And in the post I linked to showed that prot and holy were overrepresented, so that wasn’t left out.
The data shows quite clearly that ret paladins weren’t even close to being on par with DPS warriors as far as desirability is concerned. Even if prot and holy weren’t overpowered, and just on par with everyone else, you’d still have seen guilds hard avoiding ret because the utility was never good enough to guarantee the spec raid positions.
Even now, after the buffs, ret is still getting fewer Algalon kills every week than just fury warriors alone.
Ret isn’t better than your entire class. Period.
The whole of the paladin class? Sure, vastly, but that’s irrelevant when talking about a small buff to their spec that was very clearly underperforming in a way that fury wasn’t, and isn’t.
Nope I want to see you post it. You deliberately left it out. Strangely you put prot warriors in there but not prot paladins.
Gee I wonder why… maybe because it would weaken your case and make another case about class representation. Hmm
It’s also a bad case for you to make that ret paladins aren’t going to Algalon. That could be because ret paladins are weak. But equally it could be that prot paladins and holy paladins are so strong that they’re cannibalizing the underperforming spec?
I use “underperforming” lightly, this is in comparison to two S tier specs inside of one class.
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It’s on my computer at work, earliest I can post it would be Monday.
Prot paladins had almost triple the relative representation of prot warrior. (I just lack the exact numbers at this time) and holy paladins were about 33% higher than the next healer.
So yeah, prot paladin is OP on that fight, and guilds are heavily skewed toward using them.
That’s not an argument against ret, or an argument in favor of fury.
They do weaken the value of Ret’s utility. It’s stackable utility between paladins, but it’s not infinitely stackable with equal value.
If you brought 2 holy paladins to Algalon (or a prot and a holy), you have no need of any utility ret brings.
Those specs being brought in line would have given ret a bit more breathing room, but they’d have to be actively bad at the role to start considering taking the worst PvE DpS spec by far in order to get a DSac.
Actually it might be, if we’re approaching it from the lens of class representation.
But ret paladins don’t seem to want to have that conversation because there’s 1% of rets who run both specs as ret in different ways. So it wouldn’t be fair to them to bring it up.
The 99% of rets who run the S tier OS? Well let’s not discuss that!
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Shattering Throw is unique - just saying. I mean, if we’re being honest about unique buffs brought to the raid.
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top 5 on what fight, that isnt a cleave scenario ?
Cleave is 1 boss out of raid tier mostly, single target is nearly always relevant. Not to mention, cleave is all they have, if it is mega aoe they fall off cause of the 3-4 target cap, while stuff like feral is infinitely scaling with targets.
Even bladestorm has a 4 target limit, a huge cooldown, while swipe is a spamable ability.
Sad reality is that it is a net dps loss, so you dont even use it anymore.
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Now you are making numbers up.
It’s pretty common for ret to run a ret off-spec so that they don’t need to give up DPS to have DSac in the majority of fights where it isn’t needed.
The rets at the top percentiles on WCL aren’t the rets trading off seals of the pure with Divine Guardian.
I can’t imagine many (or any) of the top end guilds in those early Algalon kills had those rets swap out of their S tier spec in order to be ret on the fight.
You’d get more milage out of literally any other healer or tank swapping to DPS.
Well it is what it is.
It is as if you can HS change your dual spec and get summoned back in less than 5 minutes and play whatever of the 2 S-tier off specs that class offers, provided you have gathered the gear ?
Well, shattering throw specifically gets better as your physical DPS all approach the armor pen cap as it’s the only way to drop a boss to 0 armor. So it could see a noticeable uptick in power by the time ICC rolls around.
that’s kind of a major limitation when talking about high end content pushes.
No it wont, by that point the dps loss on your own warrior is also higher.
It actually isnt at all, since tanks and healer gear in the plate category is in abundance vs all your other specs and classes. I have 5k tanking gear on my OT (not first but 2nd choice OT), while my warrior is 5.3k GS fury. This was all done in our alt PUG run too, not even the main raid.
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It’s a math problem. There’s a breakpoint where using shattering throw is better for the raid than it is a loss in your personal DPS. I honestly have no idea where that point is, but given that ArP gets exponentially better as boss armor approaches zero, I have a hard time believing that the breakpoint won’t be met.
Yes, but we are also 12 weeks into the tier at this point. The good early tank/healing gear is going to be going to your main spec tanks and healers first, leaving your off-spec likely fairly undergeared relative to them during early progression.
Could you in that situation still tank some things? Sure, but it would have been pretty unwise to toss that kind of tank against Algalon in those early weeks.
And even if you have the off-spec, your guild probably has 2 tanks, and a solid healer core that doesn’t actually require it ever be used in your main 25 man runs.
It’s been exceedingly rare over my WoW career that off-specs in a different role are used well outside of a main tank or healer swapping out to DPS on fights that need fewer tanks/healers. Main spec DPS going tank or heals is way more uncommon.