crazy they do a ret rework then an hpal rework with big changes to frost mage and unholy dk but they cant figure out rogue
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Whatever that is you’re smoking, you should get a refund
Rogues need some love but it’s not as bad as you make it out to be.
This is data for where I am: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/33#bracket=12&difficulty=4&metric=bossdps
Not much here to complain about.
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And have Cut To The Chase also start Slive and Dice… (or make Slice and Dice passive).
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Why did you use such deliberately misleading info? Such like, deliberately misleading statistics. It seems you went out of your way to find a link that conflates Rogue parses by using random pug heroic logs included.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/33#metric=bossdps
Here’s the real link for Mythic clears of all item level… Not heroic raids ilvl capped from 435-437.
Assass is showing as 5th with an a realistic performance much lower, and an average performance that places them at only beating out Survival hunter. Placing it at 22nd out of 25. (Beating Outlaw, Feral, and BM hunter)
Sub is showing as 9th, with a realistic performance of per-boss at uncapped ilvl putting it at 19th. It is considered the most realistically viable per-boss spec.
Outlaw is performing at 19th, with a realistic expectation of being 24th out of 25 specs. (Beating Feral.)
Realistic performance (removing outliers) has two of three rogue specs losing to everything in game except Feral, and Surv hunter. Assassination is showing incredibly limited viability.
Again, to echo off what I said: Rogues of equal ilvl will be consistently 10-30k lower dps. (144k (desWarlock), 147k (demWarlock) 137k (aMage)-> 120k/104k/96k)
There’s a lot more information you could go through and dig out - like per class representation and utilization which shows Rogue at a life-time lowest sub 1% utilization.
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I don’t do mythic raids. Why would I use that as a benchmark to gauge my performance.
Here’s the link for Heroic - all item levels: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/33#difficulty=4&metric=bossdps
I look at the data for Heroic. That’s the content that I and the vast majority of players are doing. It’s more meaningful to me than content I will probably never do.
If you want to look at mythic data, that’s fine. I’m sure you will find something meaningful.
The point is, you can’t look at the data through just one lens. Different views are going to mean different things to different players. You can’t pick one view and claim that’s what the whole picture looks like.
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Wh… what? Just because you don’t participate in it doesn’t mean it doesn’t matter. That’s like saying content should be metered around +10’s while people are doing +25’s… If the quite literal best in the world can’t do it, that’s the problem. Heroic is not a valid metric. You need to gauge off Mythic, regardless of if you participate in it or not.
Heroic is a completely non-factor as it’s pugged by nearly everyone. Nobody participates, or tries in heroic pugs. I have 6 toons AOTC from pugging heroic. It’s a complete circus. Heroic is not a valid metric.
Again… what? You don’t base the game’s balance level around the bottom 40% of players pugging heroic 7/9 for vault options. This is just not a good train of thought. It’s manipulating data to fit your narrative of “I don’t do it, so it doesn’t matter.”
I have already provided the mythic data. It’s not subjective “something”, it’s definitively proven.
You’re not looking at the data, at all. You’re comparing apples to Ford SUV’s. They’re completely different. You’re heavily misrepresenting bottom-tier bracket data as if it’s factual for Rogue’s realistic performance, and that’s unfair/undue. It’s not a matter of “pick one view point” - that’s what you are doing… You’re picking a wildly isolated ilvl bracket, in heroic - including 90%+ pugs - and completely dismissing the actual challenging content of the game: Mythic.
You can’t cherry-pick an insanely small data section, disregard the entirety of the available top 20% of the game, and go “well you’re just cherry picking to fit your claim, that’s not the whole picture”… That’s precisely what you are doing with your data.
I’m sorry that the factual information provided via warcraft logs for the realistic performance of Rogues as a class don’t align with your heroic pugging, or 7/9 vault clears. But it’s fairly indisputable: Rogues sit around 100-120k (with outliers on specific fights up to 140k on patchwerk styles) at the top 1% of gameplay. Warlocks, Mages, Hunters, Rets, Warriors, etc are all doing between 10-40k more dps on average than the best rogues on the planet.
Isolating out the top 10 rogues on the planet, versus the top 10 warlocks on the planet… The warlocks are crushing the Rogues by 30k+. On nearly every fight.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/33#class=Warlock
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/33#class=Rogue
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You and I use log data for different reasons. I use it to gauge my performance. For this to be meaningful to me, I filter the data based on my item level within the content I play. That’s all. It’s pointless to compare myself to someone who is 10 item levels higher running harder content.
Everyone is free to view the data however they want and make their own conclusions. Personally, I feel it’s a disservice to look at 5% - 10% of the population and claim that as a blanket statement for the other 90%.
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Currently, Rogue simply feels like the devs put zero thought into the specs. Just a “good enough” approach.
I really miss Outlaw and pray to the Void that it gets a complete rework. It’s such a mess.
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That is called manipulating data. You are altering the perceivable results by directly excluding the results that are unfavorable to your argument.
Don’t do that. It’s a major, major statistical no-no.
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I’m not manipulating anything. I did the same thing you did. Except I used data from heroic raid and you used mythic.
You used a much smaller data set to make a blanket statement. I’m pretty sure that’s also a statistical no-no.
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If what is being said is true that is hella good news. I seriously was just contemplating of shutting down my rogue for good and not looking back and moving on with something else. I will hang on for a tad longer until we get the love we deserve.
Let’s hope when we do get the love, others don’t complain and then we get knocked back down on the floor like we always do… sigh . Majority out there from what i see though know for a known fact that we rogues have been ill treated for some time. They actually feel bad which is in someways a good thing. 
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I used the top % players in the world, because they can consistently be time-tested/proven to perform the best at any given metric at any given fight at any given moment. They’re the best in the world for a reason. It’s the top-of-the-top. Even taking it beyond the breadth of that, and into Mythic raiding as a whole… class balance should be done around mythic raiding, not heroic pugs. - These are the same players who are able to take any class and make it perform at the top 1-2% level.
My data subset was that of the best players in the world falling far beyond middle/average, and being the lowest in the world because of class balance - not because of mechanical/consistent rotation error/etc. There’s a difference in doing 100k dps because it’s the min/max 100% most possible, and doing 100k because you messed up your rotation repeatedly.
Yours includes people who are frankly… balance-related non-factors. Almost exclusively. 435-437 is not an item level set we need to be balancing the majority of the game around. Butchering data to include heroic pugs, and alt-clear-carry-for-sale content is almost offensive to the concept of fairness in a conversation.
Sorry. Heroic raiding 7/9 vault heroes, late-patch non AOTC, and alt pugs shouldn’t be even in the conversation of deciding balance. The top players in the world who are error-proof yet still 30-40k behind their equals are where the issue is – not in your pugs.
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Whatever dude. You go drool on your mythic stats. I’m going to make a sandwich.
I’m done with this one.
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Resubbed and can finally say how much i agree with this statement. Yall are acting like the 3 seconds of attention make up for the months of silence. Rework is still likely to be trash and not address half the issues.
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I’m not setting any expectations for the rework.
I just don’t have confidence in Blizzard. They will miss the mark and spend the next six months trying to fix it.
There is plenty of feedback and ideas that have been suggested for Blizzard to consider. My fear is Blizzard’s rework will be so far off it will introduce a whole new batch of issues none of us have even thought about.
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The silence is the thing folks are constantly losing sight of, totally agreed. It’s been egregious enough that, for my part, I’ve actually begun tinfoil’ing the theory that the lack of communication has actually been part of a larger plan to help give Aug the best shot at being crazy-popular on launch - or something like that. Maybe rework bloat is an issue?
And the irony is that the silence probably has little to do with the developer outside of design notes passed along to a community manager. There has been plenty of opportunity to keep our class community in the loop, but it was intentionally iced because reasons. By Ion’s own admission, they’re looking for the praise and plausibility that comes from small moments of transparency while also wanting communities to politely expect nothing if they hear nothing for longer than a week. Woot.
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in Ion’s defense, whenever they say something, players tend to hold them to it, then gripe when something changes. They’re damned if they do and damned if they don’t.
Personally, I’d rather they say something and keep us informed of the changes as opposed to saying nothing at all. That’s worst.
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Hmm, I think I’d grant that in some cases. If they bluepost about something on the forums and it doesn’t come to pass, shucks, but that stuff should be filed in with what Ion said about trying to set (arguably…) reasonable expectations. If you’re a player that reads a forum post like that and end up hearing further nothing about it for weeks, caveat emptor. Fair enough,…I think?
But including the announcement in a hosted, dedicated 10.1.5 preview that is pointedly meant to drive player interest before selectively icing said interest and putting the onus of responsibility entirely on the community in a published interview? Hrrrrrrrrrrrmmm. I’m excited for things to be better, but hard pass on the hazy gaslighting that says we should be excited when they mention specifics but also feel shame if we end up asking for details when the announcements themselves end up buried in sand alongside Gorribal.
There’s a big difference between the questions, “Wait, what happened?” and “Hey, where’s my stuff?” If they’re serious about it, better communication means acknowledging that at least some of the community has been trying to ask the former.
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BFA happened and they want their 6 month wait for allied races back.
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The good ol’ days…
Also, related aside: mages were just dished a fun, fluffy BTS clip from the community team on Twitter recently. A short video dropped, and it featured game producer George Velev relatedly talking about how feedback from players can sometimes translate into meaningful changes for class communities when the dev team decides to work with community managers they have on staff. Love to see it. I hope we end up with something similar in the future to help recover post-10.1.5.
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