Yes, blizzard decided that twisting was worth salvaging.
They did not decide that twisting was worth both salvaging and doubling in power. They did not decide that they wanted to make twisting more integral to the class than it already was. They were trying to recreate the effect with reasonable accuracy (hence the asking for feedback on the accuracy).
That’s almost certainly why the seal buffers were removed off of all of the seals that are not SoC or SoR.
And it should still be removed from SoR for closer accuracy.
Blizzard asked for feedback to make it more accurate, not to make it less clunky, more powerful, etc.
That’s why it’s not the same thing. There isn’t supposed to be the free GCD time when twisting every swing by doing it both ways. Leaving that free time in has somewhat large balance implications. It also skews how rets gear involving haste, as it creates weird effects on haste’s stat weight at a much slower speed when trying to twist.
If the autoattacks do not happen at the exact instant they would automatically occur, you are delaying them and thus losing dps. Manually autoattacking is not going to exceed just letting your swing timer run.
PvP is the only area it is potentially useful to twist like that with stopattack, as sustained dps isn’t what you care about there. You just want the burst hit.
Yes, judgement is off the gcd but you have to reapply a seal afterwards which is on the GCD. This is why you can’t twist, CS, and judge within the same swing window. At 3.0 speed there are 2 GCDs between swings. One of these GCDs is spoken for by the seal application while twisting. This leaves a single GCD available each swing window. Every other swing window, CS occupies that free GCD. This leaves a single GCD open every other swing window.
You can’t use judgement prior to the twisting seal application GCD because it removes your current seal immediately thus removing the ability to gain the effect of both seals. You would have to use that spare free GCD to judge and reapply a seal.
In the case of single direction twisting (SoC -> SoB) you start off in SoC. During the swing window you apply SoB. Now you have choice, you can either use CS during the open GCD and be stuck in SoB for the next swing window without the opportunity to twist or you would have to skip CS to apply SoC to prepare for the next twist. This is why single direction twisting isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. You will only get to twist at most 1/2 of all swing windows or you have to abandon CS completely.
In the case of bidirectional twisting (SoC <-> SoB) things open up a little. You still can’t judge during the twist since your active seal is instantly removed. The good news is that since it doesn’t matter what seal you start in to twist, you can now CS during every other swing window. However, you have a dps loss on CS of your attack speed is > 3.0s due to delay of using after cooldown expires. You are also able to judge sometimes when you leave a twist in SoB and it’s not time for your CS. This will not be a frequent occurrence since your CS cooldown and seal rotation has to line up with your judgement cooldown.
Another note about attack speed. The optimal attack speed while twisting will be ~3.1s. Anything slower and it just adds dead GCD space that cannot be utilized and will increase the delay in getting CS or a judgement out. Anything below that causes issues with clipping and possible auto delays.
Sounds to me like they are simply asking for Feedback on the system in general not the approach you seem to be preaching for, your reaching for straw man
They were removed because their getting feedback if it turns out that feedback is negative you can be sure it will be reverted
One size does not fit all stop preaching accuracy your sounding like an Alexensual stan at this point the same people who wanted spell batching in wow classic which was a terrible idea and the majority of the classic community hated it, Accuracy does not = good
Blizzard asked for feedback stop reaching for straws
Not sure how you misunderstood what I was saying but I’ll try to explain it in caveman for you beta 1 is not the same thing as original tbc it’s similar the point I made was it was similar to the beta 1 approach not the original, as for the free gcd no idea what your talking about judgement is the only spell with a free gcd if your referring to the old tbc approach, stop it was a bug their not going to recreate identically a bug just to sate you
you mean you have to actually pay attention to the game? wow who’d have thunk that?
I don’t know how many times I have to explain this to you the macro was used for 2007 it wont be affected with current technology outside of pvp this won’t have any effect on pve
They were looking for feedback on how it compares to live realms.
It was different.
They adjusted it to be closer.
It’s not my fault you want to believe they were looking to make twisting more than it was.
Like I’ve said regarding these, they work to guarantee the twist, but they are more like training wheels to reduce the losses from messing it up. It isn’t optimal to be stopping your autoattacks for any amount of time.
The macros have some good application in tbc where going in and out of range of things can make the proper timing somewhat awkward, and the burst is more valuable than the sustained dps.
you twist from SOC +CS, twist into, SOB + Judgement on hit > full 3.6 second timer >reapply SOC (in the current beta build) not sure how you can’t see that fitting in the timer man seems pretty straight forward to me
whoever said to use judgement before? did you even read my posts?
Uh no you start of in SOTC + Judgement > SOC don’t twist > CS > SOB + Judgement(not on gcd remember and you press it just after you’re hit) Reapply SOB hit boss, reset
that’s the current beta rotation if it was with 2 twisting it would be way better to play as gameplay and fun
I really dont recall ever saying to judge during the twist you do it right after the twist its off the gcd it dosnt matter you also want to start in the 2 twist in SOB because it out dps SOC and your first HIT will never be a twist so SOB > SOC in terms of that afterwards its just a 1-2 rotation where every judgement cd you throw in a filler spell it’s not hard and much more interesting to do as a rotation it’s far less clunky as you just follow your 1-2 rotation whereas currently in beta1 your judgement will always be off cd by the time you get back to it so it feels bad throwing in a filler somewhere it dosnt fit
this is completely untrue you want a weapon around 3.6 it’s the reason why Lionheart Executioner is so popular for rets and it’s been theory crafted to hell and back not sure where your getting your information from
I would definitely say players with your mindset are in the minority(edited out majority) on this for sure
They adjusted it to get feedback it will be changed again and probably again just like the drums their gathering feedback and then will make their decision
as for not making it more than it was I’m fine either way it goes doesn’t mean I shouldn’t give feedback on the better of the two options it just means I’ll be using haste pots instead of mana pots if it’s the current iteration
[quote=“Smeet-sulfuras, post:45, topic:934655”]
Like I’ve said regarding these, they work to guarantee the twist, but they are more like training wheels to reduce the losses from messing it up. It isn’t optimal to be stopping your autoattacks for any amount of time.
once again you never cited any source for this information so we can just assume it’s nonsense and move on
Stop attack macros make your next swing not happen when the swing reset time finishes.
This is bad for sustained dps, as it slows down your auto attack, and thus seals, and ends up as a dps loss.
The advantage is that it makes sure that your twist works even if you are too late and miss the twist timing.
At best, you turn your attack back on before the end of the swing timer, and within the twist timing (i.e.) twist at the right time in the swing, and the macro does nothing but toggle your attack on and off at a time it did not matter.
If the swing timer resets and you have not turned your attack back on yet, you have lost dps compared to if you had activated your start attack twist macro at the correct timing within .5s of the end of the swing timer.
The longer you wait to turn the attack back on to twist, the more of a dps loss you have compared to just doing the timing correctly.
The main advantage is that you aren’t losing twists from being too late, so you may still see some gains compared to not twisting, but you will be lower than someone twisting without stopattack if they are doing it properly.
There’s a small chance that if a GCD is slightly mistimed that delaying your auto for a twist might be a gain, but the losses of delaying an auto add up fast.
a fraction of a second it’s off could allow you to have that 2nd gcd in that swing timer that’s why their used and that won’t equate to lower dps sure if it’s off for a whole second or more i can see your point but that’s not going to happen by doing this it allows you to follow a simple soc + crusader sob + judge + sob rotation instead of soc > crusader > sob judge > soc the > being the swing so you can see why it’s being discussed and theory crafted
so does the loss of time that you could have fit in that judgement or crusader or consecrate or excorcism they far outweigh an auto white hit slight delay of what like .1 to .5 seconds at most? any competant player will be able to judge whether to twist or not in that time
These delays become very significant very fast. (Exactly how fast depends on your swing speed)
Pushing a twisted swing back to fit in a judgement or an exorcism can very quickly turn into a dps loss.
In general, your best results are going to be from tuning your attack speed around a twist, not delaying twists to fit in other globals. If you are doing that, you should be trading haste out for other stats.
well i’ll be using weapons at 3.6+ speeds so it wont be an issue for me under that i can see problems but if your going to go for a faster weapon you may as well not twist at all stay in sob and pop haste pots+drums your damage wouldnt suffer that bad there’s old 07 videos showing people doing 2k dps doing that
Quite a few interactions that are not a direct result of batching, and the modernized game engine just does not capture that very well in a lot of nuanced cases. Batching was problematic as implemented on Classic, but I think they got the “Numbers” accurate, just that the way things work is so different that batching could never have been truly replicated on this engine.
Let me lay out the time sequence to illustrate both scenarios for you. I don’t include SoTC as that is part of your opening and I am only talking about your stable state rotation. I’m also talking about attack speed and not weapon speed as there may be hasted due to drums/gear but I’ll use your 3.6 speed in the scenarios.
Scenario 1 - SoC -> SoB - 3.6 attack speed
SoC already active
.3 seconds prior to swing timer going off = T0
T0: Cast SoB - GCD triggered
T0.3: Swing goes off
T0.5: SoC fades
T1.5: GCD ends
T1.5: CS - GCD triggered
T3.0: GCD ends
T3.9: Swing goes off
T3.9: Judgement
T3.9: Cast SoC - GCD triggered
T5.4: GCD ends
T7.2: Cast SoB - GCD triggered
T7.5: CS off cooldown
T7.5: Swing goes off
T7.7: SoC fades
T8.7: GCD ends
T8.7: CS - GCD triggered (delayed 1.2 seconds)
T10.2: GCD ends
T11.1: Swing goes off
T11.9: Judgement off cooldown
T11.9: Judgement
T11.9: Cast SoC - GCD triggered
T13.4: GCD ends
T14.4: Cast SoB - GCD triggered
T14.7: CS off cooldown
T14.7: Swing goes off
T14.9: SoC fades
T15.9: GCD ends
T15.9: CS - GCD triggered (delayed 1.2 seconds)
T17.4: GCD ends
T18.3: Swing goes off
T19.9: Repeats from T11.9 sequence indefinitely
In this scenario there are 6 swing windows. Of which only 3 are able to be twisted. There is also time for 4 CS but due to a total of 2.4 seconds of delay only 3 were able to be used. Now lets look at bidirectional twisting at 3.6 attack speed:
Scenario 2 - SoC <-> SoB - 3.6 attack speed
SoC already active
.3 seconds prior to swing timer going off = T0
T0: Cast SoB - GCD triggered
T0.3: Swing goes off
T0.5: SoC fades
T1.5: GCD ends
T1.5: CS - GCD triggered
T3.0: GCD ends
T3.6: Cast SoC - GCD triggered
T3.9: Swing goes off
T4.1: SoB fades
T5.1: GCD ends
T7.2: Cast SoB - GCD triggered
T7.5: CS off cooldown
T7.5: Swing goes off
T7.7: SoC fades
T8.7: GCD ends
T8.7: CS - GCD triggered (delayed 1.2 seconds)
T10.2: GCD ends
T10.8: Cast SoC - GCD triggered
T11.1: Swing goes off
T11.3: SoB fades
T12.3: GCD ends
T14.4: Cast SoB - GCD triggered
T14.7: CS off cooldown
T14.7: Swing goes off
T14.9: SoC fades
T15.9: GCD ends
T15.9: CS - GCD triggered (delayed 1.2 seconds)
In this scenario all swings are able to be twisted but you are still losing roughly 20% of your CS damage potential due to delays. You are almost unable to use judgement except where your leaving state is SoB and CS is on cooldown. Having a 3.0 attack speed eliminates the 20% CS damage since there are no delays to CS. This is why a 3.0 is better than 3.6 AS if bidirectional twisting is available.
This is where you will CS after putting SOC on you will want to immediately CS and will have enough time to twist into a SOB in the Same window1.5+1.5 = 3 thats why we are using SLOWER weapons to account for any haste proc effects
The rest of what you linked is a repeat of a incorrect rotation, whether it is the 2 twist or 1 twist what I’ve typed here is valid and I’m tired arguing this point with you and Smeet, at this point if you can’t understand then that’s a you problem
So you are going to postpone a 110% weapon damage strike for judgement of blood which is roughly 20-33% weapon damage depending on gear level. You can’t use judgement during that cycle without skipping CS since judgement would leave you with no seal active for the next swing. Unless you use CS and not be able to twist during the next window. Why don’t you lay out the “correct” time sequence in the same format.