Does anyone know if the seal remains for the .5 seconds when removed with judgement and not just replaced with a new seal?
As of the most recent build, the seal persistence applies only to seal of command and seal of righteousness. This is true on both the ptr and the beta. The functionality isnât different between them. The current setup of SoC / SoB twisting on beta is pretty much where it was in the original tbc (although some other less important twists are still a little wonky, but nothing game breaking).
That original post from Blizzard has not been updated as they have tweaked their seal twisting mechanics on beta/ptr.
They are removed on the use of judgement instantly. If you have 2 seals on at once (because one hasnât fallen off yet) judgement will remove the most recently applied seal.
We donât know if it should only apply to SoC or SoR, though, is my point, right? How it worked in TBC doesnât really mean anything in the #somechanges TBC Classic.
We only know what Blizzard said they were changing and that it doesnât work the way they said it should after that change. The lack of update is precisely why people are confused about it working the way it does on the beta, currently.
The closest we could get to original twisting mechanics in tbc with this implementation is just having SoC keeping that .5s buffer. This version is still easier to pull off because it doesnât involve watching for the timing of SoC animations that may or may not happen.
Donât ignore this part of what you quoted though:
They are clearly looking for something approaching accuracy here. There are already some changes with this method of twisting instead of spell batching. I canât imagine blizzard intended to fully change how twisting interacted with our rotation AND give us a 10-20% dps boost by making that change when they have already stated they have no plans on retuning classes.
And, as has been mentioned, the current ptr/beta twisting setup is currently on its third iteration. The changes to it arenât just bugs.
Seems odd to give Paladins both seals, then. /shrug
Yeah, that was an odd choice, honestly.
At least that is still how ret played back then (even with a faction balancing). 2 way twisting would be a deviation alltogether into a form of paladin that never existed in any version or faction of WoW.
Ok let me just start by saying the fact that the spell batching is gone has already Retuned classes Warriors, druids even a spriest going into and out of their stances is much more fluid making them indirectly massive buffs you can now stance and instantly charge for example
Rets rotation change is for the better funwise and gameplay wise I donât see you on any druid or warrior threads advocating they get a 1 second delay after stance swapping to âmaintainâ that tbc feel
reading the thread you opened a week ago with your essay your arguement was essentially i dont like the new rotation itâs not fun
I hate to be the one to break it to you but your not playing the original TBC, weâve got an abundance of changes already Outside the game, resources, addons, better internet speeds, etc, so how can you sit there and play the classic andy when you have access to all these things
tl;dr let people have their fun.
This method already boosts the normal Command -> Blood swap, as you donât need to hang in command fishing until you get a proc to time your swap back to blood.
2 way twisting isnât the same as just making a rotation more fluid, it pretty heavily reworks how retâs rotation looks, while being a much larger dps gain than any other example of batching adjustments.
Im not seeing how it does that the reason you could fish for the command proc before was due to spell batching with spell batching removed that would be impossible hence the .5s change was made even if you fish for procs which isnât correct anyway as you would want the sob damage to be applied even without a command proc as it equates to more overall damage
Aye, the timing of when to do the swap back to blood was originally as a SoC animation would trigger, making it a more difficult timing to maintain the blood hit when SoC did not trigger, as what you were looking for was an animation that only happened around 40% of the time, which made the rotation easier to mess up.
Now you just swap within .5s of your swing reset, which is a much easier timing to meet consistently.
So now youâll pretty much never miss that blood hit, which was fairly simple to miss back then (or had the risk of doing it too early and preventing a command hit)
It is was still better to twist to blood regardless of the soc proc as it equated to more overall damage your getting a blood proc instead of getting just white damage
so in otherwords you do exactly as what you should have been doing all along fishing for procs = lower overall dps
no it was very easy to do with a /stopattack macro which is what you should have been using all along
Using stopattack macros are going to cost you dps. Turning off your autoattack for even a tenth of a second is a 2.6% dps loss from a 3.8 speed weapon.
If you are closer to a 3.0 speed doing so costs 3.3% of the swingâs dps.
Compared to a fully optimized non-twisting rotation using consecration and exorcism, that throws away a good chunk of the twistingâs dps gains to use a stopattack macro like that to make the timing work. You are always better off manually timing it without pausing your attack.
The current twisting mechanics are easier to pull off because the timing is fairly forgiving and at a fixed visible point rather than a timing that was based on an animation that occurred less than half the time.
Current beta 1 way twisting is much more consistent than original command twisting in practice. 2 way twisting is an unnecessary buff to the maximum potential of the rotation. Rets were never able to have a full 2.4 seals on at all times while using crusader strike and other filler spells, thereâs no reason they should start now.
Some changes arenât meant to extend to class reworks.
You people make me sick!
Who the hell twists seals? Leave the sea doggos alone! All they want to do is catch some rays and eat fishiesâŚ
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Not sure where you got the statistics for that if you can cite the source go ahead, but I fail to see how it can be a dps loss when in that tenth of a second your hitting for just white damage over a blood proc or potentially a soc proc with a double proc ntm it allows you to fit 2 gcds in the swing timer
Im not to sure what your saying here as you would be using exorcism and consecrate in your twisting macro anyway as the filler slot spells
Thatâs exactly what the macro does? your manually timing when to hit your twist/cs whatever it removes the automation out of it, im guessing what you mean here is if you canât fit your 2nd gcd in you just white dmg or twist and not use the judgement/CS/Filler spell once again i fail to see how this equates to more dps in the unlikely event that your auto attack is paused for a brief moment your still getting 2gcds per timer which means they come off cd faster which means more uses, once again if you can cite where you got the statistics
Well of course it is itâs clearly designed to make this work which in the old version of the game it was an exploit and unintended, for starters the reason soc damage came after the initial hit was so it could benefit from Vengeance procs because of the spell batching so if it was how it was intended seal twisting wouldnât exist in the first place
I think what we are disagreeing on here is you want the game exactly as it was which is impossible to do where I want the game how Blizzard Intended it to be with their vision not the compromises they had to make it work
Your dps from white hit + seals is dependent on swing timer.
If you delay your white hit with a stop attack macro, it also delays your seal damage, so if you have .1s delay, but deal the same damage, now instead of having 1000 damage / 3.0 s = 333.3 dps, you deal 1000 damage / 3.1s = 322.5 dps.
A stop attack macro with twisting is like training wheels to a bike, yes, it helps you not fall flat on your face, but you arenât supposed to rely on them. By having the twist timed earlier in the current implementation, it also gives you more GCD free time in your next swing as well.
And yes, this is the essence of the disagreement.
I just donât take the stance that just because exact accuracy is impossible that it isnât worth aiming for as close as we can get it.
Having one inaccuracy for me does not justify making another much worse.
Thereâs a significant problem with judgement regardless of if the twisting is SoC->SoB or SoC <-> SoB. It simply wonât be used in either case. If you have to twist from SoC -> SoB you wonât have enough GCDs to judgement and wonât have enough to CS on cooldown due to having to reapply SoC for as many swings as possible.
If twisting is bidirectional but judgement doesnât allow for the .5 second linger on any seals, you canât judge as part of the swing window so it would have to be done during a free GCD and you would have to wait till you had SoB applied as judging rank 1 SoC is pointless.
Losing judgement isnât that huge of a dps loss but it would have a major impact on mana longevity. I may try to build an action over time sim (not dps) to see just how bad the impact would be with all these approaches.
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Except that Calculation is wrong your not factoring in you could have used a Judgement a Crusader Strike or any other filler in that same window and for that fraction that you didnt attack your getting 2 gcds in the same window, and this is all in retrospect anyway these were used back in 2007 the same way a hunters steady shot macro was used back then and today it is seen as a dps loss, with the current batching you would never miss a swing timer using this macro it was purely because of bad batching that it was necessary back then
Well the moment youâve twisted is when you would be spamming your next CS/Judgement w/e as soon as its off gcd you wouldnt be waiting to see if you have enough time to get both in because you need to do it asap to fit it in hence the reason the macro was born bad internet could make this take longer than it should so thats why the macro was used this wonât be a problem with current technology
Just because something might be reflected as more accurate which itâs similar at best in beta 1 does not mean we should not get something that is in the same light similar but overall better in every way
Well thatâs the crux of the problem though, what you deem as worse others, myself included see as improved, but in a way that doesnât take away the feel of tbc retribution paladin
The correct rotation does not involve using judgement for SoC so you wonât need to reapply it with the .5s thatâs been added you would be twisting at the end of the current swing so going into the new swing timer you asap CS (judgement has no gcd) and you will infact be able to fit in the next twist
Yes SOB is the only one that should be judged and judgement should only be used in either 2 scenarios 1 being youâve just twisted into SOB and the other you HOJ stun and Max rank SOC Judge thatâs it
In either case whether its SOC > SOB or SOB >< SOC judgment will be fine because itâs off the gcd
I find it worse because it is further removed from accurate tbc ret paladin gameplay. Twisting was an awkward spell batching bug to make use of. Streamlining it to make it flow perfectly in our rotation when it never did that is more akin to making steady shot just not push back auto shots. Yeah, itâs a lot less clunky for hunters that way, but it is a large deviation from tbc.
2 way twisting isnât similar to how it worked back then. It is however, stronger in every way.
Itâs not wrong. Delaying the auto attack to make twisting guaranteed is just adding dead time to your rotation and dropping both the benefit of twisting and your white dps.
You donât gain extra GCD time for other abilities using a stopattack macro like this. Delaying your autoattacks is one of the worst things you can do, rotationally speaking.
Yes it was a bug and blizzard have instead of not adding it into the game let us have it but in a way that itâs not like a bug but a core part of our rotation now
Why is this a bad thing? itâs the same thing but we can do it both ways not sure why your so hung up on this tbh especially if your playing ret
your talking as if every swing timer is paused when itâs not it was as i said earlier used to in 2007 for the bad internet that could result in longer gcds and wont be an issue with current tech
your not delaying them your inputing them in manually this is especially going to be the meta for arena when you want as much burst as possible it wont affect pve in the slightest