posting to say make coh into raddons, every tick of eyebeam reduces its cd instead of every cast.
so when it happens, lenegis wont be able to say “i fixed it with my ideas”
Mates i dont get it and nor do devs get it and certainly some of the above posters dont get it.
Why have this extremely bothersome weird and uniquely bad cdr on EB via CoH ?
Just make it either flat cdr to 20 seconds or even better. Remove that super expensive talent altogether and have eyebeam be baseline 30 seconds and instead give us something better of a talent that wants to work with our other talents like glaive tempest or fell barrage. And ofc make essb 30 seconds also.
This new CoH is the epitomy of bad,convulted overdesign weird shoite that noone asked for,noone wants, yet it gets shoved down our throats. Devs dont play the spec so they wont have to suffer their bad design. We have to suffer that. Reroll angle has been going strong for a year for havocs and it seems like , reroll angle it is again.
Wake up devs, wake up and deliver please
4 Likes
I do NOT want a mover based DH at all. Movement is needed for movement.
From what I can see, almost no one takes mover in PVP either.
I think a lot of the people who play mover in PVE are doing so because the alternative is so far behind, not because the gameplay is better.
4 Likes
Have you ever considered that the edits are just to expand on a point? I don’t really care if he replies, in fact I’d rather not repeat the same thing over and over.
And here’s the thing, I never actually wanted them to change coh, I like CDR gameplay, and I think static CDR takes away from how the rotation feels, I also think that the issues are greatly overestimated to the point where it’s ridiculous at times.
And here’s the thing, what actually pisses me off is that you people asked to change a talent that you weren’t and likely would never play anyway, so wtf is the point?
The compromises I pointed out are just that, compromises, something I’d rather see other than this new cycle they concocted on the ptr. And if they had to make something I’d rather they take raddon as a baseline and slightly modify it so the discrepancy between sor and st is not so big. Rather than make it a boring flat CDR.
What’s next? Coh gone, shattered destiny next? Another talent you’re not gonna play anyway gone because it doesn’t please you? What about demonic?
I’m not blind and I can see the types of people that complain about coh are also the same type of people who complain about demonic and shattered.
I’m always trying to come up with a compromise that satisfies both, people would like to see the mover play style removed, I didn’t agree as there are different builds you can use, but at this point I don’t really care much, remove mover, they already went halfway, just do it all the way, f it, why should I care about what you like when you don’t give a single damn about what I like? Exactly.
your compromises end up not being compromises and multiple people explain the reasons why to you nicely. your just not listening to them and often go for a aggressive stance like “shut up” or “i dont care” or “you people” no one wants to start a dialogue with a person that spirals downwards hard and attacks the moment theyre idea is lightly criticized
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I am justifiably pissed when people ask to change a talent they weren’t playing in the first place, while they could play another build, let’s be real here, most of the time the problems brought up really aren’t as big of a deal as they try to make them out to be.
Let’s not pretend that many people haven’t asked for the removal of things such as coh or sd or even demonic. How exactly is this a compromise? It isn’t.
Oh but look at the problems… All I see is people just making subjective arguments, or greatly over exaggerating an issue in order to make a point, and you want me to sit here and pretend as if those points are legitimate. Why aren’t you listening? Oh I don’t know maybe because you’re making a mountain out of a grain of sand or pretending as if your subjective gameplay preferences are totally objective?
And now look at the results.
Let’s not pretend that if coh/sd suddenly became the more powerful build we wouldn’t have 100 people like you talking about how this needs to be removed or reworked because I don’t like it even if there was an alternative that’s like 5% behind.
The issue here is that im noticing a certain pattern, it’s never over with just one thing, first they ruin one thing you like, and then they come for the next one, until the spec plays so differently from what you used to enjoy that it effectively has nothing else you like.
Maybe you don’t have a big problem with coh being changed to something like raddon but I assure you, if it ever was the better option, there would be people similar to you complaining about how meta is now an uptime buff, and all that crap, and you know it because you 100% would complain about it, because you literally already do when it comes to things like radiant glory.
I mean you also seem to hate anything that’s even slightly dynamic in a spec, like procs and rng in general, so sorry if I don’t take your opinion seriously, but the way I see it, everything you touch aside a very few specific things would water down the gameplay to essentially burst window inside big cd, no damage outside of CDs, with little to no interactions and moments where the rotation actually feels nice due to the sheer lack of dynamism.
You’re not treating the game as a game, you’re treating the game as a math equation, you don’t give a damn about good gameplay, you only care about “what can give me the extra 1% damage in this situation” even if it comes at the expense of what’s actually important in a game.
And this is why I don’t take you, or people like you seriously.
We might agree on something once every year, like raddon, but what you think makes a good game and what I think makes a good game are completely different.
And no, I refute your argument, I at least try to come up with ideas that work for both players, ofc it’s not perfect, and some ideas might be impossible to reconcile, but at least I try.
As far as the suggestion I made how is either something similar to raddon, or a flat CDR not a viable compromise, it clearly is.
your not justifiably pissed, changes happen momentum was changed to something else, wheres the outrage for that? unused talents being changed is a good thing and its absolutely insane to be made at blizzard for changing a poor talent. the issue is that they made cycle of hatred into something kinda poop rn. odds are its going to be changed again with further iliterations.
if you take the “delete demonic” meme seriously then thats on you, demonic is never at risk of being removed cause its class fantasy even tho its heavily unhealthy for the spec cause it makes havocs main cd into a sustain buff. cycle of hatred was disliked in the past cause it was rng and mandatory back in shadowlands, in df it was consistent and predictable and somwhat liked but people knew it could be better. if they make cycle of hatred into raddons and theyre really close to doing that btw then people would love it. cause everyone likes big eyebeams cause like demonic, eyebeam is class fantasy.
shattered destiny is alright, not really impactful or anything. worse for the average casual than anyone else.
these arguements are backed up with logs and actual boss and dungeon logs/ encounters. you just refuse to listen cause it contradicts your worldview
again its a unhealthy spec engine that makes havocs main cd into a sustain buff. its heavily dependent on boss uptime and makes you do tank damage if you have a mechanic or do anything important.
coh and sd were always “strong” it was just a profile that people cant really pull off cause it requires 100% uptime. but frankly the majorioty of people complaining about it only do heroic raiding at best so it doesnt matter. play what you like and want. if your good at dh you can perform good with anyt build
specs evolve, this is normal for the game, do you think i like what retribution evolved into? no i dont like rng gameplay and having my burst turned into this weird spike sustain, i dont like my resource meaning so little that i can overcap by 9812817219889 and still orange parse ilvl.
cause uptime buffs are objectively worse and more unhealthy for the spec. but you dont care, you just like the visual stimulation and thats fine. but as someone who cares about my specs i just want the best for it so it can be tuneable without issue or be able to reeach peak performance without having to rely on some rng luckstreak
as i told you before, theres good dynamic rng and theres horrible spec defining rng
divine purpose, rtb, afi pre nerf, tank parry, filler procs are all good examples of dynamic fun rng.
radiant glory old cycle of hatred, post nerf afi, sisinster strike double hit ALL BAD EXAMPLES of rng since they hold so much power on your spec. theres a large difference between procing radiant glory on the 8th spender in your crusade window compared to procing rg on your 12 spender outside of your crusade window. this isnt fun, the new tier sets arnt fun, this is bad rng
your trying to make me out to be some villain when i enjoy rng when its done well. rng can be dynamic and it can be fun if done well. this is why i like divine purpose and used it despite being a sim loss pre class tree shuffle while disliking radiant glory.
stop slobbering blizzards knob whenever they make a super rng thing cause you have a gambling problem
ive played divine purpose when it was a 5-6% loss in keys and st, ive played templar strike in df when it was a 5% loss, ive played crusade despite 1min wings being 5% stronger. i have fun with this game unlike you. i have fun with the level of content i do wikth the talents i like, despite it being a “loss” in all aspects. dont accuse me of treating this game like a math problem when i actively play worse simming stuff because i find it fun. if you feel the need to remove entire playstyles cause you cant stomach a loss then thats on you and you should be ashamed
you dont, your ideas actively favor your bias and you actively poop on people who give the slightest critizism on ir or explain why it wouldnt work
its clear you dont play any spec you pollute with your presence beyond world content, while giving everyone who has the misfortune to read your posts sudden brain cell die off. cause you think typing long winded essays will make you look smart, when you clearly dont know anything
now you have me writing entire dissertations.
I dont know how you think giving us exactly what we asked for in the first place that prompted this change is a “compromise” but ok. Like really, who are you compromising with on that? I think you have some misguided thinking that we want this new version of CoH and dont want a raddon-like talent or flat CDR. The problem is this new version IS the compromise that the devs came up with from us asking for a raddon-like talent or flat CDR. I mean come on:
It’s ok to be upset because this new version of CoH is worse for your gameplay, but you are refusing to even listen to anything past your own angry “they dont like the talent i liked they must love ruining all joy” thinking.
The old CoH had problems. We didnt like those problems, so we said “hey can you make it work like x or y” to fix those problems. The devs made it work like “z”, ignoring some of the problems and making new ones. You are now angry at us, saying “you ruined my talent. Why wont you compromise and let it be x or y?! I hope they ruin all the talents you like now!”
I dont know man, maybe make suggestions for how you think those talents could be improved? Then when they change the talent to be not anything close to what you suggested we can all sit here and yell at you “why didnt you suggest (exactly what you suggested)?!?!?! You just want to ruin our fun!”
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I only play PVE and have some friends that also only play DH on PVE, at least on our guild the majority really like the spec for the mover based style. Its totally personal sure but i just dont think removing it will make people happy, the changes they are doing with fel blade seems to be a good middle ground between the two build for me, where you may be able to save fel rushs only for movement and not rotation.
I don’t care if mover exists. I just do not want it to be the only option. If they want to continue to push a playstyle that is that divisive, the alternative better be viable.
2 Likes
I agree with all of this. Make eyebeam a flat 30s AoE nuke and meta a 60s CD with 20s of demonic form. I’m good with keeping essence break as a long as they remove the cone effect. Better yet, have essence break buff glaive tempest and fel barrage. We already have trail of ruin for blade dance.
I agree with you 
though. Somehow we went from a 2 button rotation with almost uptime of meta to this crazy micro burst management style that requires continuous situational awareness for momo and inertia. Burst will always be better than sustain which is why mover is always better than non mover.
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The removal of demonic is so that meta can become a real burst cool down. Either meta goes or demonic goes. That’s my opinion. With demonic and CoH, it’s all about meta uptime. Well if we can achieve almost demonic form, then why not just be a demonic all the time like the old school warlock.
For folks who like mover builds, which I’m one, it prevents meta from really being a very impactful CD. If they removed demonic, they could change meta to me 1 min with talents and 20s of demonic form, then tune accordingly.
There are many ways they can make the tree engaging with different play styles.
- Left side tree: Mover that focuses on burst AoE and/or ST. Move trail or ruin and buffs to chaos strike accessible along the left side. EssB becomes an aura or a large sigil.
- Middle - no mover focusing on meta and eyebeam talents, including fel barrage. Talents that reduce meta from 2 mins to 1 min and talents that significantly buff eyebeam while in meta.
- Right side - no mover that focuses on glaive tosses, bleeds, glaive tempest, and burst AoE with immo aura.
I mean they aren’t far off from this now, which appeared to be the intent, but there’s a couple of things preventing this from happening.
- The talent tree needs a reorg to make this really work. Talent nodes need to be adjusted.
- Demonic and Meta - 1 needs to go to give meta real impact
- Eyebeam needs to become our heavy hitter for both AoE and ST.
- The micro burst amp windows is a terrible design for mover because only the top .1% can pull it off well. That means the other 99.9% lose damage. There needs to complexity and that should be rewarded with the highest damage profile. But the current iterations are far too punishing and not fun.
3 Likes
See? What did i tell you.
First they come for coh, then sd, then demonic, then something else.
This is why there can be no middle ground with people like you.
Because eventually you won’t just take something, you’ll take everything, and the spec will be just completely different in a way i won’t like.
Though i HIGLY doubt they will ever remove demonic, so… Good luck with that.
But i thought everyone wanted meta to be a 20% uptime cd!! No. I like high cd uptime gameplay, because usually gameplay inside your cds is more fun and interesting, and i don’t give an ounce of a damn about damage profile when compared to actual gameplay. Because unlike you i don’t treat the game like a math equation, i play for gameplay.
You’d think that people would play games for gameplay, but apparently not, at least not some people.
Also araghon, all im seeing is a lot of double think when it comes to sd compared to radiant glory, you don’t have a problem with meta being “an uptime buff” as long as it’s not the better option, but you know damn well that you would make LITERALLY the same argument as you made for radiant if it was ever the case, so don’t even bother. I don’t buy your bs.
Your argument about “bad rng, good rng” Whatever you made, is just a justification for your double think, ultimately you have a problem with high uptime on cd, and if it ever was the better option you know damn well yourself that you would complain about it and make literally the same argument you made about radiant. The only thing that radiant is guilty of is doing better dps than the alternative, you know it, i know it.
Which is why i don’t take you, or people like you seriously. If they listen to people like you we’re just gonna get boring uninteresting specs everywhere.
Are you saying your ideal gameplay is uptime of meta? That was Antorus and it was the most boring spec ever. It literally was 3 buttons. Eyebeam and blade dance on CD and then smash chaos strike spam.
Why even have meta if it’s uptime. Meta should be impactful as a CD. If it’s up 100 then the damage is just baked in and we have no burst, just boring sustained, which is not competitive in either raid or mythic+.
Ive read your posts and I don’t get any of your arguments.
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twin buddy, pal, friend. you did the sin of replying to lenegis and give him a reason to post another thesis in this thread.
but giving your credit, i like your ideas alot so 10/10
i can see you havent read a word of my post if that was your take away from it.
I was really trying to understand what they are so mad about. Do they just want COH to keep them in meta of the time? If they want that, just turn CoH into a permanent metamorphosis. But then the actual meta is useless and those that are mover builds don’t get a big impactful CD.
I think what they are really asking for is a very simple rotation that is primarily chaos strike spam and blade dance on CD. CoH isn’t required for this. If you want the benefits of meta like haste and a bit harder hitting, well those could just be talent buffs in the no mover section of the tree.
Anyways I do think no mover should be viable, especially for prog raiding. The current mover build which is far superior in damage is far too punishing for average and casual havocs, which I fall in that category. Which is why I switched to monk after all these years. Turns out monk, especially brew is a basket of chaos too.
from what ive gathered, most no mover players just want havoc to be giga sustain with no burst. so having no real burst cd is kinda the point. cause ya know, ohhhh big demon visual it looks cool. it looks cool sure but ultimately having meta be this weird sustain things for literal years gets tiring. having one and half expansion where movers was thr norm after years of no movers no burst spec being the main stick of havoc was refreshing.
no movers should be viable, but for that to happen it needs to do giga sustain like enhance shammy does rn OR have its own burst cd reintroduced.
flat line damage profile are just no viable in todays raiding full of tight windows and burst oriented things
Sustain doesn’t work in mythic+ either when everything is based around 2 min CDs and pulls. Sustain in raid doesn’t work well either because you can’t maintain on target uptime either. Plus, burst phases with lust are better for burst specs.
There can still be a no mover spec that has a strong sustain profile with BD and CS but can have a burst AoE or ST CD with meta at 1 min and EB at 30s.
I’m just hoping the DH Dev recognizes this and makes changes. I loved playing ret but my guild has so many rets so I had to play a different spec. Whole raid group can’t be pallies.
understandable tbh