Okay so this is why discussions don’t occur here. Because everyone attacks and noone discusses in good faith.
You don’t actually want to discuss you want to bash and beat until you get your way. I replied to someone else not to you so why would I reply to your suggestion to that other person?
Typical obnoxious wow forum “discussion”.
List of people who are “struggling” to farm a mere 100g a week?
Video of “literally every mining node camped by bots”
No one is forcing you to do anything. TBC rewards you with way more gold than classic ever did. Running 1 daily heroic will net you almost enough gold for 1 respec. The quest completion alone gives you like 22g. Running the dungeon probably close to 20 or more (especially if youre getting the mining or herb node).
I fly around blades edge almost daily on my server for an hour or 2 and have no trouble finding nodes. And thats with my slow 60% flying mount
Well if DPS have way more farming options than tanks and healers that would mean theyd have much more gold to spare?
No im one of those “not every item, every build, every person, needs to only play optimally.” just play the game the way you wanna play within the rules given to you. The people who required their raiders to show up “fully WB with 500g of consumes every week with BIS gear” were toxic as hell to the community. And that becoming the meta ruined classic. Premades DOMINATING battlegrounds ruined pvp in classic. Forcing people to play the same exact build as everyone else so that its “optimal” ruined classic. People not playing a build because its what they like or a race because its what they like and only playing Optimal Class/Race/Spec because “min/max bro”
THIS PERSON DISAGREES WITH ME I MUST IGNORE BECAUSE THEY SPEW LOGIC
The scope of what I consider acceptable is quite simple, nothing that changes the content of outlands or the actual character mechanics. Which is why I’m fine with dual spec as it doesn’t do those and actually improves the game experience. Or why i’d be fine with say adding the barbershop but not fine with say adding dk’s which is one the random changes people like to throw around as somehow exactly the same as dual spec. There’s someone who literally thinks the retail talent system is exactly the same as dual spec so we’re dealing some people who simply have no clue what’s even being discussed.
Busy but reply inc.
Sorry for the delay. Have a day job ;p
Thanks for the reply - you’ve given me something we can discuss so that’s great.
Firstly your scope is far more permissive than mine, but that puts us back in the unresolvable “Red socks are better than blue socks” type of discussion we can agree to disagree on that for now.
The core question for me now is whether dual spec falls within your scope.
Does dual spec change the content of Outlands
Does dual spec change actual character mechanics.
For a baseline case I agree with you that Barber shop does fit your scope.
I don’t think dual spec does. Dual spec meets the first part - it doesn’t change the content in Outlands.
But the second part has questions for me. Talents are a core character mechanics feature. I would argue that dual spec allows you more easily to play around with specific character fiction and Tailor it better for various content and thus is a character mechanics change. Admittedly a small one of we use the WoTLK implementation.
We do need to also compare our scopes though as I don’t think yours gives enough credence to RP - it focusses on the gameplay mechanics and environment. But not how that works together as an RPG which players interact in. My issue with that is that these RPG elements are important to the player experience for many players.
Your post was restored, Profits!
Looks like the false-flaggers lose again!
Dual spec doesn’t change how any of those talents work though. A fireball functions exactly the same regardless of whether the mage got his spec as one of his dual specs or from respeccing at a trainer.
And while some people might have two specs for the same thing that are min/maxxed slightly different most people end up using it for completely different things, like pve/pvp or tank/heal/dps.
And that’s another reason why I’m fine with dual spec, I don’t find the current respec at all compelling from an RPG stand point to begin with. It’s already a fairly immersion breaking activity that doesn’t draw me into the game world more or seem any more realistic than dual spec.
Paying some guy a little gold to make you forget your talents so can reclick them doesn’t make any more or less sense to me than paying that same guy a lot of gold once to teach you how to switch talents. That is of course more subjective.
my warrior is 64, my priest is 65. And I tell you guys that I want to tank and heal, and I could do that comfortably. But I only quest to level because doing dungeons while not being in the correct spec is no fun to play. It’s like playing FPS with a controller against PC players, not a full experience. The gold cost is prohibitive enough that I never respec since level 61. Imagine changing between tank and damage dealer every day. That cost will add up to a huge amount. In addition, having to wait for the heartstone’sCD to go back to Outland every respec is tedious.
The good sink purpose is not achieved as I don’t respec because of the cost.
The dungeons do not have enough heals or tanks because we are stuck in questing specs.
Nobody wins in this case. The benefits of having free spec is not deniable. People that claim dual specs do not solve the tank shortage do not understand the whole picture. Enabling more tanks may not completely eliminate the problem, but it helps so much.
While I agree it’s a childish mentality, this is untrue.
Both factions got both seals, blood and vengeance.
vague and subjective, no. Emotionally charged, yes. However, having a preference for spec vs class identity isn’t really an emotionally charged statement.
Someone making a statement out of emotion, is not an appeal to emotion. they have to making the argument on the basis of trying to appeal… to your emotion, most often guilt. when someone is presenting the point as, you should do this, or feel guilty otherwise… thats an appeal to emotion.
This this simple response is actually proof for my point… liking it or not is just a subjective yes or no on that point. its just a small preference, and acting like the other side is wrong for taking that stance is pretty unfair to all sides.
Yes it is. my argument is your points are partially invalid since you’re claiming a false logical fallacy.
I never placed any goal posts…
I never said meaningful.
So the point here is… you base premise of, its bad because it’s old… is flawed, because the game is also good because its old…
I never said classic was perfect. you’re starting to project onto me.
Ok man, if you wanna ignore all of the people mentioning that it’s cheap… like you!
Having a an argument that falls in line with a fallacy does not automatically make something a fallacy, there is easily grounds for the defense that these changes are in fact leading to more changes.
You’re kinda bad at calling out fallacies at this point.
Oh sweet. That means that healing gear that boomkin love to take is in my bags. Oh nope still not there.
I’m glad you are enjoying a nice debate (although some could be using it to farm for that respec). You’re right, 50g is not a lot of gold. You’re right, 50 gold is too much for a respec. Between Raids/heroics/arena 2s 3s 5s / bgs/farming/miss clicks/pet running across keyboard I probably spend 250 a week on respecs. Playing the content as an optimal spec is just, you guessed it, more fun. I also play a rogue, pvp as combat is borderline griefing and combat is far superior in dungeons/raids which adds up to an annoying amount of gold per week. Throw in a mage alt and it’s nearly 800-1k g a week to play the correct spec for the correct content. Most who have said “just don’t respec “ have quit the game due to not enjoying it (surprise). I shouldn’t have to “just do pve as pvp spec” or vise versa. The game is more fun when you can set yourself up for success and be prepared and spec’d optimally.
We should still have to go to our trainer, click unlearn talents and pay a fee. It should just be significantly less than what it is now. Everybody wins.
“you don’t have an explicit list of people and video proof, you are wrong”
Yikes.
ah yes of course, we should just quit the game because “nobody is forcing you to play”
great argument, glad you’re not working for blizzard
“works on my PC”
another great argument
That doesn’t justify being forced to pay other players just to play the game.
“forcing, forcing, forcing”
Sounds like you were in the wrong guild if you ever felt like you were “”“forced”“” to minmax. That’s a player problem, not a game problem.
Also, it’s not 2004 anymore, we’re not a bunch of clueless 10 year olds flailing around anymore. If you play a bad spec, you are consciously making that decision to be suboptimal, and everyone knows it is suboptimal, hence why you’re being ridiculed for actively choosing to gimp yourself.
“buh buh buht EVERYONE was minmaxing”
Again, false. There were dozens of guilds on my server that outright advertised they do not require world buffs or max consumes or any of that crap. It’s your own fault if you were dumb enough to join a guild based around a playstyle you don’t like.
Also I love how you use “nobody is forcing you to do anything” and then “everyone is forcing you to minmax!” in the same post, lmfao
I AM OBVIOUSLY RIGHT AND YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY WRONG, MY ARGUMENTS ARE LOGIC AND YOU ARE A BIG DUM DUM
Thanks for demonstrating why you’re on my ignore list now.
Wrong.
My point is that the anti-dual speccers don’t have any valid arguments for why dual spec shouldn’t be in the game. They just keep parroting:
-nOcHaNgEs!!!
-go back to retail!1!!1!!!
-muh spec identity!!!
-muh gold sink!!!
-etc. etc.
It’s almost like…wait for it…some parts of the game are good and other parts are bad and need to be fixed.
Very complex concept to understand, I know, I’ll give you a moment to comprehend it.
And you wanna ignore all the people saying it’s not cheap 
“my slippery slope argument is not a slippery slope because it WILL happen!”
lmao
If we ever get cross-realm LFD, or LFR, or cross-realm zones, or world quests, or homogenized gear, or 4 raid difficulties added to TBC Classic, I’ll send you $1000 over PayPal.
Ad hominem is not an argument.
That’s all fair comment. I still don’t agree but it’s fair comment.
This is basically what a lot of people want. Maybe not literally retail, but a lot of people who want all these changes are Wrath babies who can’t be patient and wait their turn.
Well do you dislike same faction BG’s as much as dual spec?
Gonna expand this? reference anything? provide an example? probably not though.
Most of your points were falsely claiming logical fallacies, and disproving your own points without you realizing it. Hell, nothing you’ve said here is new, so you too are parroting.
See but what you claimed was that the thing was bad because it was old.
Theres another person in this thread not very far up that is claiming the only reason needed to add dual spec is that other changes have happened. This is an example of why its not a slippery slope fallacy.
This is not an Ad hominem. An Ad Hominem is to disregard a point by attacking the character rather than the point. First of all, I have quite clearly pointed out where I think the flaws in your points are.
Here is an example of an Ad Hominem.
“You’re a pro dual speccer, So of course you’re wrongly claiming logical fallacies.”
See, so the Ad hominem is to disregard what you said based off of the attack on character. you wanting or not wanting dual spec has no bearing on your ability to notice or point out logical fallacies correctly. This is why its a logical fallacy to do this.
Calling someone bad at something is making an observation at best, and at worst I suppose you could consider it an insult… but an insult is not an Ad hominem
So now you’re just adding to the list of logical fallacies that you don’t understand.
And lastly
Lack of tanks and healers is also a player created problem. But you’ve used this player created problem to justify your point. This is a tad hypocritical.
Now I don’t think disregarding dual spec based off of people being forced into a meta is a solid argument, its about in line with you logic so far.
Nope. Don’t like that either. It’s not really fixing the problem.
That said, the core problem that HvH addresses may not actually be fixable without even more drastic changes to the game, so it’s the lesser of two evils I guess.
“you must write a paragraph or you are wrong”
Troll.
The difference being I’m “parroting” things that are based on facts and logic, rather than subjective appeals to emotion.
“NOOO YOU CAN’T HOLD TWO DIFFERENT OPINIONS, YOU MUST ALWAYS JUDGE EVERYTHING WITH THE SAME OPINION”
Troll.
Again, just because you say it’s not a slippery slope doesn’t mean it isn’t. What you’re arguing is a 100% textbook slippery slope argument. Shoo, troll.
And you’re just insulting me over and over and over instead of actually addressing my arguments. Because you have no valid counterarguments to mine.
Ad hominem.
Nice strawman.
Yeah, another troll to the ignore list.
Its almost like you don’t want to pay the game as intended.
You cannot simply “”“fix”“” faction balance issues. At least, not without drastic measures that would result in a tidal wave of screeching and REEEEing, like faction queues or forced faction changes.
HvH BGs are simply the least obnoxious solution to the problem that doesn’t require drastic changes.
“you must play the game THIS way, wanting to play it any other way is wrong and bad and not as the devs intended”
Yikes. Glad you don’t work for Blizzard.
Thing is that spec switching in retail is a super mixed bag since while you can swap the spec, swapping the borrowed powers end up ruining it.
Honestly, dual spec is just kinda a band-aid situation in some respects and a benefit really just to people who want to pvp or farm.