Yeah, they’re evil engineers, shaman, and warriors… which kinda sucks cuz I want them to stay the Mage/Warlock clan but what’s done is done now.
And it would have totally enslaved it to the Burning Legion had it not been for the actions of the Darnassian Night Elves.
From the rebellion of the Darnassian Night Elves, which never sought to reassert some claim over the planet based on the prior ruling classes empire (which they dismantled), but stayed mostly in their forests keeping a vigil against the Legion.
The comparison to Iran is rather superficial - really only related through some vague notion of “theocracy.” Never the less, I find 1979 Iran to be a relatively good event. To call it reactionary ignores the total enslavement and repression the people of Iran suffered at the hands of the puppet Shah. In fact, to this day Iran is a far more progressive force in the world in so far as it opposes US foreign policy, the most destructive thing on the planet. So it’s not exactly a negative comparison, though superficial, to me. More reason to find the night elves the most interesting Alliance race. 
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I do find it rather funny when people talk about it as a rebellion since that suggests they had any choice in the matter. They didn’t. It was fight or be killed by demons. Hell, frankly only the Highborne actually rebelled. All the other NEs that opposed the Legion were forced to if they wanted to survive and even then at first they wanted to go and ‘rescue’ Azshara from the demons.
If the Legion had not attacked the NE population and had just focused on the other races of Azeroth, I think the number of NE’s opposing the Legion would have been substantially smaller, particularly since the NE’s at the time were rather bigoted.
That’s literally what it was though. They ended up fighting directly against the arcane aristocracy lead by Azshara whom was allied with the Legion, also evidence of this being a rebellion is the outlawing of the activities (arcane magic) associated with the former Highborne.
Doesn’t change the fact it was a rebellion against their ruler and subsequent radical reorganization of their society.
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They outlawed arcane magic after the fact once they had settled at Hyjal and went all in with Druidism. They very much were heavily using arcane magic against the Legion. A bit unfair on the poor moon guard frankly. Hell, the Highborne that would later become the High Elves were the only ones that actually chose to side against the Legion. The rest had it forced on them.
Plus it wasn’t so much a rebellion against Azshara. It was just the armies that Azshara hadn’t bothered to keep trying to fight back against the Legion that was purging everyone from the continent. As I said, they were talking about ‘rescuing’ Azshara from the Legion originally. If Azshara had marched out and said to the NE population that the demons were allies and the demons hadn’t attacked the NE people, a lot of the NEs probably wouldn’t have raised arms, particularly since most NEs at the time didn’t care about ‘lesser’ races.
As I said, it wasn’t so much a rebellion against Azshara as an attempt to defend themselves from annihilation. You yourself pointed out they kicked out several groups who had opposed the Legion. In the aftermath they pretty much abandoned their old culture and followed whatever Tyrande and Malfurion said.
As I said, poor Moon Guard got a poor deal considering how hard they fought.
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At this point it sounds like you’re just splitting hairs over what counts as a rebellion or not. I mean isn’t it referred to as “rebellion” in canon sources? I don’t have the books to scan them for the specific word, but I feel it is referenced that way on Wowpedia. It doesn’t really matter that parts of the Highborne sided against Azshara when the followers of Tyrande and Malfurion associated the corruption of Azshara by the Legion with the Highborne, outlawing the activities which basically made them Highborne. They could have simply given up the activity and remained apart of the new society, they chose not to. That’s why they were exiled.
Yeah, but that isn’t what happened is it? The demons did attack the night elves which were outside Azsharas small circle, and particularly once Malfurion, Jarod and Tyrande had turned against Azshara.
According to Chronicle that majority of Night Elves at the time followed Cenarius’ ways, not Azshara’s:
- The trees, flowers, and woodland creatures silently watched the night elves flourished, whispering news of them to the Wild Gods of Hyjal. Among them, the demigod Cenarius took a keen interest in these newcomers at the Well of Eternity's shores. Cenarius adored the night elves and believed they had the potential to become great caretakers of nature. He befriended the fledgling race and taught them about the natural world. It was Cenarius's hope that the night elves would strive to live in harmony with the wilds.
For many centuries, the night elves did. They built a graceful society around the Well of Eternity. The capital of their small nation was Elun’dris, or “the Eye of Elune,” and it was founded on the shores of the fount of power. The night elves also honed their ties with the surrounding woodlands and their myriad inhabitants. Cenarius guided the night elves when necessary, pleased by the wisdom and benevolence that thrummed in their hearts.
There was, however, one location Azshara and her forces avoided: Mount Hyjal. The spirits and demigods who roamed the sylvan forests unsettled the queen. She knew in her bones that Hyjal was somehow beyond even her influence. It was a place steeped in ancient magic, a wild, untamable, and unchangeable land that stood in stark contrast to her vision of a new Kalimdor. Publically, Azshara prohibited expansion into Hyjal out of respect of the night elves’ ancient kinship with the forests. In truth, she despised the mountain and the harmony it represented.
Azshara’s views on Hyjal were well known to Cenarius. With growing unease, he had watched the night elf empire expand. Year by year, he became increasingly frustrated with the hubris and thoughtless actions of the sorcerous Highborne. The majority of night elf society continued honoring the old ways of revering the wilds. The fact that these folk still lived in harmony wit the land warmed Cenarius’s heart, but he knew that they had no influence over Azshara and her arrogant followers.
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I think the reforms are too late, but for a different reason than the OP. We’re now finishing up the game’s 8th expansion, and here we are basically resetting the core Horde race rosters and positions yet again. We now effectively have 3 new racial leaders (Rokhan, Calia, and Gazlowe) replacing 3 long-time leaders (Vol’Jin, Sylvanas, and Gallywax) as well as whoever is supposed to step up and replace Saurfang. All this before whoever actually leads the Horde in general now (because having a council on equal footing as High King Anduin sounds clunky and kinda lame).
The story has always suffered from the problem of most Big Bads being tackled by predominantly Alliance efforts with the Horde sort of shoved in; the only time the Horde takes center stage is when it is the Big Bad. At this point, it’s pretty much impossible to envision the Horde having any real relevance in the story.
Having someone like Anduin only for the Alliance is a problem in and of itself. With the way the Horde council is being shaped (especially Baine…), there’s no way it will be anything other than just an Alliance subsidiary going forward. Anduin will likely always be leading the charge now and the Horde will just go along in some form or fashion.
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Far enough. I have only the War of the Ancients novels to go off and frankly it can be hard to tell what Blizzard has retconned and what they haven’t.
The novels however were pretty clear that the NEs never had a choice in the matter. Azshara never gave them a choice to side with her or not. She just let the demons loose on everyone who weren’t in her particular main circle.
To clarify, I am not saying that there wouldnt have been NEs who would have rebelled but rather it was more that they were betrayed rather than that they rebelled. They didn’t get the option to rebel.
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Isn’t Sylvanas giving the Horde a choice in the matter initially and the Horde choosing to support her until she called them nothing rather the point of the thread?
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I will say I envy the Horde having the council being put in place. I hate Anduin, he never should have been made High King because now he’s just the holier than thou leader that everyone just bows down to in his greatest. He can do no evil, and is never wrong, so anyone who opposes him is automatically wrong and evil.
It sucks. I wish the Alliance had a council. Or that Anduin would have been killed off this expansion.
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Yeah, it does seem that the majority sided with Sylvanas. On the other hand, part of the reason I buy that is those that sided with Saurfang essentially boil down to conscientious objectors.
Teldrassil aside, there were very few things to promote the Horde to turn on her. It was to the point where I actually began to dislike the cinematics, since they were essentially portraying information to the audience that their PCs would not have access too; and thus would only be able to act on using meta-knowledge. So little of Saurfang’s journey could be experienced in game.
Its strange. I despised Sylvanas, but there was little to nothing in the game to tell my PC what the hell Saurfang was doing at the time I was forced to make a choice. Even afterwards, it was a lot of me relying on information outside of my character’s perspective to justify my PC’s actions.
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Why would you be envious of that? Tribal councils are as bad a system of government as you can get. They don’t get anything done and are extremely vulnerable to corruption, in-fighting and foreign influence.
The Warchief position was one of the Horde’s strength over the Alliance. Dictators are extremely effective governors; the flaws of the system lie mostly in the transfer of power. The Horde is weaker by having abolished the institution of Warchief and the Alliance is stronger for having a single supreme military commander.
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You mean a supreme military commander who is 18 and has little to no experience? One who has lived through two. TWO. Horde attacks against the Alliance and watched them kill thousands of innocents, and then decides you know what? Let’s forgive them and let bygones be bygones. Nevermind that one our allies had genocide committed against them.
The High King position is a crutch when you have a crappy leader like Anduin leading the Alliance.
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I do not know I’d call Anduin a supreme military commander given Tyrande and most the Kaldorei military told him to take a hike and he could do nothing about it.
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Anduin’s perceived flaws do not make a council a good system. At best you’re arguing that he be replaced by a more competent strategist.
Except Anduin was completely justified in telling Tyrande to go suck it when she wanted troops diverted to take back a strategically worthless patch of Blighted land i.e. Darkshore. Specially, if I remember correctly, on the eve of the attack on Zuldazar.
If the Alliance is NATO, Stormwind is the USA. They contribute the most and have the most power so they have the most influence. That much is sensible. And since Stormwind is a hereditary absolute Monarchy in practical terms it is ultimately up to Anduin to decide who gets to be High King, unless the other races wish to take their ball and make a new Alliance with blackjack, hookers and… oh, they’re dead. Sad.
I think Blizzard has done a disservice by painting the Alliance and Horde as unions of equals. That’s not how politics work. The races in these factions are not equal in numbers, in contribution, in power or relevance. There’s a reason Germany and France wield more power in the EU than Estonia or Malta.
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Pretty sure the conversation I was jumping into that Syriyna was having was about supporting a genocidal leader (Sylvanas or Azshara) after said genocidal actions. So can’t really put Teldrassil aside.
The Alliance has a Blue Warchief because Blizzard doesn’t care to write a council system for them when they can just focus what little story they throw at them on one character. The Alliance had a council system that worked just fine until Blizzard came out of left field claiming it didn’t without any proof or examples. Another funny fact is that High King has more speculation and a fan head-canon explaining it instead of actual canon probably because Blizzard can’t bring it up without waxing lyrically about the Wrynns.
Ironic that the Horde is now ruled by a council of equals and the Alliance is a dynastic empire. And its hilarious when people try to cite “tradition” or “Warcraft 2” bringing up recent alliance developments when it has barely anything in common anymore.
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My main concern for a council for either faction is that Bliz is very selective in which leaders / factions actually get to speak up. Already we’re having a problem of sorts with the Zandalari being conveniently absent from everything happening in 8.2 and 8.3. It’s legitimately amazing that they put all of the new civilian rp stuff in Org and nothing at all in Daz’Alor, despite it being our capital for this expansion.
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Those Night Elves may have followed Cenarius’ teachings but they were still citizens of Azshara’s empire and they LOVED her before she threw them to the dogs.
The lowborn Night Elves also continued loving Azshara and following her even after she ran around curb-stomping the troll empires and slaughtering them in mass as she claimed their lands for herself. They only turned against her when it became clear she had cast them aside for the Legion… it seems like a similar situation to the Horde following Sylvanas after she burned Teldrassil until she cast them aside as well.
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