Reforms in the Horde: too little, too late

The Horde said it was redeemed when they liberated themselves from the Demon Blood Curse, that there would be honor, glory, and the ability to show both friend and foe compassion and mercy.

Then came Garrosh.

The Horde once again said they had changed, that the last relapse to the Old Ways had passed and was done with, that the Horde would fight to safeguard Azeroth and treat with past enemies fairly in future endeavors.

Then came Windrunner.

Now we are back where we started. The Horde’s word means nothing as Tyrande rightfully stated. The “New” Horde has forever been sullied by the taint of unchecked aggression, devastation of the natural world, and mass murder of innocents. A council would have been a fine change…back when Thrall chose to abdicate I could have seen Cairne, Vol’Jin, Saurfang and others be apart of it. But they are dead, and so is the Horde of retail in my eyes.

Unless Elune reveals herself and resurrects all the fallen of Ashenvale, Darkshore and Teldrassil, or barring that some kind of sweeping retcon occurs the “New” Horde will be forever tainted by warmongering, mass murder, devastation, gullibility, idiocy and of course hypocrisy.

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me a third time and we might as well be put down as the rabid dogs Tyrande rightfully calls us.

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I currently see the horde as nothing but evil cowards. Their only real achievements in BfA was killing civilians and considering they haven’t done anything to compensate that (e.g. returning and rebuilding night elf lands) I still don’t see why they see themselves as any better than Sylvanas, Garrosh or others.

And as you mentioned, it’s also not the first time this has happened. The horde keeps talking about honor, yet they commit new atrocities every few years, and they only get worse.

Why even bother with honor anymore when the only thing you have to show for is shame.

It also amazes me how Anduin can forgive them for no reason after all of that. He’s a disgrace in his father’s legacy.

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I expect this thread to be purely constructive and not at all aggravated.

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Yeah, but they were wrong then too. What did their personal achievement have to do with any redemption?

Getting sober from drugs doesn’t redeem you from the murders you committed while on drugs.

The Horde was never redeemed.

It’s just that, as you say, it’s so obvious that eventually you can’t keep drinking the kool aid.

The Horde would have been better if it had just owned its identity like bad factions do in Warhammer & 40k.

Interesting stories and good characters don’t need to be morally good.

However, hamfisted narratives that keep trying to shove evil characters as misunderstood good guys down the audiences’ throats are inevitably terrible.

But whatever. I’ve said this hundreds of times. Not sure why I bother repeating myself. Blizzard wasn’t listening and neither was anybody else it seems.

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Is it even worth threads anymore?

They’ve shown that they’ll change characters on a whim so there isnt much of a point in discussing story and/or character motivations anymore. Cuz guess what? it dosent matter. They’ll just change it, on a whim, for no reason what so ever other than to ham fist their plot. They’ve done it to the horde twice now.

This is bfa writing summed up:

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This is what makes me hate BfA above all else. I love the Horde. I love the values they (are supposed to) represent. The Tauren have always been my favorite race, and their story is a sympathetic one.

But Blizzard repeatedly tarnishes the Horde in irredeemable ways. Teldrassil (and BfA) cemented this. They literally have such an abysmal opinion of the Horde, they actually say that Sylvannas had the majority of the Horde’s support prior to her little hissy fit.

WHAT?

It’s really shameful what Blizzard has done to the Horde all for the sake of heavy metal edgelords.

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Did they do it for the edgelords, though?

It’s hard to know what motivates people, but I’d guess the WoW story is designed less to satisfy the few people invested in the story and more to drum up engagement with the game’s marketing. In that vein, Teldrassil is great because it makes for SHOCKING ads and blog posts.

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I can’t argue with you. Said it before, they were given ample opportunity to be the good they claimed they could be and this is where we ended up. The Horde should never have been given another chance(at the end of this expansion I mean).

Excuse me Two Brothers is a masterpiece and I will not have you besmirching its good name.

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High King Anduin says the Horde is honorable and good guys.

No one is allowed to disagree with Anduin!

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It has really gotten to me that a lot of the Horde was apparently fine with Sylvanas as long as they thought she was doing it for them. The AU Orc leader’s lesson seemed to be mostly about the Warchief being selfish, not that being like the Iron Horde is wrong.

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Should of never even reached that point to begin with, said it before and ill say it again you cant give the horde enough redemption, you cant give the alliance enough justice (with the story they picked, ideally either side would need none of the above). Bfa’s story should of never left the drawing board. When dealing with player factions you cant just have one run rough shot over another without ticking off a whole bunch of people (hence why i see a lotta tilted ally players around here), not like the horde is an NPC faction you can just do whatever to.

Was especially disappointed being a mostly pvp player in a pvp themed expansion. Because I do believe there are ways to do a faction conflict right without blatantly villain batting one side and making characters do irrational things.

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When the little brown dog grabs the piece of popcorn it dropped made this gif the best thing I’ve seen on these forums in months.

EDIT: And they’re wearing little robes? Best day ever.

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Admittedly, it’s not that they’re specifically catering to “the edgelords” but rather their “heavy metal Horde is so awesome” mentality mixed in with the “big dynamic moments even at the cost of any consistency” mindset. I just lumped that all together because that’s an easier terminology to type out.

Essentially they just do things because they think it makes cool moments, without really considering the repercussions.

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Who are these “edgelords” people keep talking about, and what do they want? Are they like the void lords?

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Who are these “edgelords” people keep talking about, and what do they want? Are they like the void lords?

They exist in the plane of Metal.

Think basically like the void, only instead of big purple tentacles it’s all black spikes and electric guitars.

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The writing team, tbh. For years it’s become increasingly apparent that the writers favor the Horde, but not the version of the Horde we as players consider to be the true version of the faction. The writers (sans Golden, who loves the opposite) enjoy metal and borderline evil characters, the ‘bad guys as protagonists’ style, while having little passion for peaceful or good races.

I can’t be the only one who’s noticed that when the Horde is being written as ‘morally grey’ and edgy, it always wins, while the more Vanilla-esque Horde themes always involve a loss when present.

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Is the Horde about family, or is it about swearing loyalty to a Warchief?

Is it about scattered races banding together to survive? Or is it about Stompin’ da humies flat in a propa WAAAAGH?!, and painting things red (especially continents. Little known fact, Garrosh wanted to paint Pandaria red because he had it confused with the turtle, and wanted it to go “fasta”)

The only time the Horde was written as properly stable was when they had Thrall running it. Every other iteration, unless you count Vol’jin barely being there for Warlords, which was as much an extension of the Garrosh arc as anything, has been riddled with internal strife triggered by external aggression.

It isn’t that the Horde is inherently like this- it is that the Horde gets written with two themes- Thrall, and “Are we the baddies?”.

Thrall is clearly and unambiguously a good guy, so when he’s running the show, everything gets relatively chill. When anyone else gets in there, buckle up, because we’re doing the first-two-RTS/WH Orc routine. Except Vol’jin, so he had to die.

As disjointed as it might come off, I’d rather not further punish the Horde’s narrative further, and have the “good guy Horde” remain a stable force- preferably until the end of the game. We’ve seen enough bad Horde.

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Hmm … WC1 Horde; WC2 Horde; Garrosh’s MoP Horde; The Iron Horde; Sylvanas’ Horde. Pretty sure things don’t end up well for the “Horde” whenever we flirt with the Edgy. Hell, if it weren’t for the fact that Sylvie found MORE edge to edge-lord herself over after WotlK, the Edge of the Forsaken would resulted in their total destruction. Also, its seems that bouts of “Edge” all too often are what CAUSE those losses on the Vanilla-esque (WC3) style Horde themes.

As for the OPs point. I’m so beyond caring anymore.

Sorry folks, I can’t help it. I’m in a naively optimistic mood. The last few major cancerous elements of the Horde are out (those that only used the Faction as a tool for personal machinations); the ARs are all solid additions to the Red Team; Voss, Rokhan, Gazlowe, and Rexxar have all fully committed and taken up leadership roles; Green Jesus died and something closer to WC3 Thrall has resurfaced; hell even the Council system excites me! I just do not care about Alliance vengeance atm! Maybe down the road, but for now … I’ll enjoy a hesitant optimism.

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Lol if this expansion and what they did to the Horde was for “edgelords” they wouldn’t be shaming the Horde and kicking out the character who represents the edgier Horde while pushing faction unification. If the point of the expansion was to appease that group they’ve utterly failed because those people are just as miserable as you are.

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