We can track how the class scales. And unless the buff nerfs the scaling we can make some solid assumptions from that. Either way, the buff is over tuned right now. It is performing better than the stated aims of Blizzard for the buff.
Ziryus, as always I respect you sophistry, but not so much your maths ;p
Can you explain where and how we can see this?
I’m not claiming that I’m an expert on this and know better; I’m curious as to what I should be looking at to come to the conclusion that it is overtuned.
We can’t track how the class scales as we have never seen how this buff scales 
Now as for whether it exceeded expectations, hard to say, it seems to be around 10% for most people which is what they targeted. But even if it’s a little over what was targeted that doesn’t automatically mean there’s a problem.
If I’m making a cake and add more sugar than I meant to but the cake ends up better why would I complain?a
I was looking at Alg as this seems to me the more “patchwerk like” fight.
The difference there was about 10%. As we have about 3 days of post buff data in the 2 week set now that’s shifting closer to 8%. And obviously, the more time that passes the more it will narrow the difference. But to my reckoning the difference is about 10%. It’s narrower when you look at the top parses.
Blizzard said they aimed at 5-8%. This is marginally above their upper bound. Couple this with Feral scaling and I think it’s grounds for the buff to be adjusted. Especially when you consider the spec wasn’t the worst performer even before the buff.
And before someone pipes up with “you can’t predict scaling” scaling concerns were the reason stated by Blizzard as to why they promptly addressed the fiery interplay with deep wounds - so Blizzard begs to differ there.
Blizzard said 5-10% actually so given that you just agreed that on a fairly feral friendly fight they’re hitting less than 10% that’s within the limits of what blizzard set
So guess you’ll admit feral was not buffed beyond design?
Algalon Over a Range of 2 Weeks:
Min: 5452.12
Median: 7197.60
Max: 8856.41
Algalon Over a Range of 1 Day:
Min: 6045.53
Median: 7834.96
Max: 9193.87
And really do note this part:
They got a buff that’s apparently right around where Blizzard stated it would be.
I stand corrected.
Then my position is personal, I think 10% is too high.
How about 4% - because that’s about where it is in the upper end for Algalon.
At the upper end. I’ve already discussed that I don’t think focusing on the upper end is a good approach.
The upshot is, it moves a strong scaling class from middle to top with two phases of scaling to go. Relative to the pack.
Fair enough, so you just don’t like it for reasons.
It’s not broken, it’s not outside of intended design, you just don’t like it.
Yeah I guess.
I personally (for reasons) would have supported a small buff (no more than 5% across the mean). So that Bearweaving wasn’t mandatory.
The top feral parsers didn’t need any buff at all. They were already doing well.
It seems like it’s that they’ve lowered the complexity, or at least the benefit of playing the most optimal and complex playstyle, so those who are not as skilled at the spec benefit disproportionately (about 5-10%), while those who are exceptional benefit less (around 4%) from the changes.
Though, that’s a lot of assumptions, and it isn’t clear that that’s the case based on my understanding of the data.
And the meta is such that 5% either way makes quite a difference especially at the top.
I would not be surprised at all if Blizzard slightly nerf if such that it shaves off some of the damage benefit without reversing the effect of lowering the skill curve.
One concession I’ll make is that we are dealing with a few days of data - a small sample.
I don’t know why they would. I mean, it’s not like Feral is suddenly #1 across the board (or even on any single fight).
The adjustment seems to be inline with what they stated they wanted. If anything, it’s a less performant than they stated.
4% at the top is 6% less than 10%.
They are now a decent melee DPS, and who knows, 10m HMs may actually even accept them.
Okay so if the current feral rotation is not easier than the melee classes that beat it why does its damage need to be lowered?
I don’t think it’s a harder rotation. Not without Bearweaving. You manage bleed timers. You’re not desyncing, or monitoring swing timers and positioning etc.
It’s not brain-dead but it’s not as difficult as some make it out to be either. Not now at least. It’s probably on par with Warriors and Rets in terms of difficulty. They’re different but not necessarily harder.
At any rate - let’s see how the numbers pan out ina couple of week when we have more data.
The difference for handling uptime between bear-weaving and not bear-weaving is pretty significant. It’s definitely much more effort than the reward for doing so would be worth to many.
Oh I agree. Bearweaving requires more skill and class knowledge for sure…but without Bearweaving I don’t really see the case for “Feral is the hardest to play”.
Before the buff what I had hoped for was a change that increased the reward for Bearweaving. I actually think it’s a shame they killed it. I like reward for effort mechanics.
What I don’t like is buffs that remove the difficulty and give you a reward.
If they removed the difficulty, they shouldn’t have done it in a way that buffs the class relative to others.
All personal preference so I get why people won’t agree.
But that entirely depends on how difficult the current feral rotation is vs other classes now doesn’t it? Not how hard it was to itself pre buff.
And I’m not at all sad to see bear weaving gone, it was a stupid janky gimmick. The current rotation is a lot smoother and still rewards the real skill of feral which is managing 3 abilities that use combo points of which two are on timers. Switching into bear form during energy pool time wasn’t skill, it was just tedious.
The feral buff magnitude is irrelevant. The fact that druids were buffed so that both of their dps specs now eclipse both warriors dps specs is ridiculous.
To put it in perspective, if Blizzard tomorrow gave warriors battle rez and innervate, raids would still prefer a feral druid over warriors.