Rebuilding the Horde

Its no secret that the horde has been in dire straits on a narrative level ever since BFA. So I wanted to put this post together as a way to start a discussion on how the Horde and its story can be rebuilt and its roster revitalized in a positive way. I know we aren’t likely to see any movement on this until we come back to Kalimdor or the rest of the N.EK is updated. But it still can be helpful to be clear as a community on what would help put this story beat on the right track.

  1. Defining the Horde
    In my view the council has been a massive failure in terms of generating interesting or engaging story beats or providing a sense of identity in the absence of a Warchief. It has felt more like a narrative band-aide to address the fallout of BFA without having to spend resources building something new or interesting. This has led to not only stagnation but a feeling that the Horde is now just red Alliance.
    In my view the factions are at their best when each is heroic and provides a different experience and lens to view the world. If we really are moving past Warchiefs, than we need to really expand on the family and brotherhood aspect of the Horde and transition to something more centralized. In my view creating a Executive Position on the council to act as the face, leader and diplomat. Not unlike say the EU president could be something interesting. A Horde that is more than a military alliance and acts as a economic bloc and integrates its member nations could be a way to offer differentiation and provide clear value in story of why the Horde should still exist and why nations would still sign up. It would go a long way in terms of narrative value to have throwaway lines of characters talking about how being in the horde have brought them economic prosperity or how it changed the security calculus. Like if we could get in midnight an npc commenting that the Horde helped finance the rebuilding of Silvermoon would be big in terms of understanding the common citizens dedication to the Horde.
  2. Character Roster
    It’s no secret that the Horde roster has been gutted. We used to have the Avengers to the alliance’s justice league but now we are left with the Avengers in phase 5. It’s the 3rd stringers with some aging stars. It also doesn’t help that warcraft is a setting where you smash your action figures together and the Horde really feels lacking in terms of power. Geyarah. Thaylissra, and Telanji are good first steps as they are interesting characters but we need some heavy metal in the rest of the roster. A repowered Thrall with his doomhammer back, a reborn Teron Gorefiend at a fel orc host, Vol’jin as the reborn loa of kings. Take Thalyssra on a journey learning Elisande’s magic and have her as the magic counterpart to Jaina or touch on that AU Ellisande from the Tyr questline, just something that gives some magical firepower to the roster. The Forsaken are in desperate need of an overhaul. Lillian Voss and Calia would really benefit from short stories or a book, I think we need to see more of Lilians leadership and a deeper dive into her powers and Calia really needs to come into her own as Forsaken and her place in the Horde. As well as her representation as the herald of Lordaeron reborn, a conflict involving her child and the tensions that can arise if they live would be glorious. Also, some Nazgrim style supporting characters would go along way in building out the bench. The Horde needs to be heroes, but ones that are draped in heavy metal and complex moral questions. They aren’t the cleanest but they will be the most interesting. That’s where I always saw the Horde at its best in the narrative.
    TLDR: The Council sucks, morph it into something with more depth and integration. rebuild the roster by investing in a Thrall, Voljin and Thalyssra and bring back some favorites like Teron Gorefiend. Along with a needed narrative overhaul of the forsaken leaders.
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2A. Stop shoving previously neutral characters into the Horde and actually develop some minor Horde characters with history. Like Alexi Barov, or Boss Mida, or Aponi Brightmane. And some major characters canonically have children; let’s finally meet Durak, or Yenniku.

(But I disagree that Calia Menethil is salvageable.)

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Fun fact Calia has been present in every expansion since her introduction in Legion (barring TWW) and every single one of her appearances so far has been an absolute disaster

Please just put the girl to rest

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I actually think that the Horde should be the opposite.

The Alliance should be the centralized typical nation-state conglomerate whilst the Horde should be a decentralized group of tribes, clans, and smaller kingdoms.

Ideally we would have both a council and a warchief for the Horde.

The council essentially works as the law-making legislative branch for Horde affairs while the Warchief acts as the authority on war.

The Horde, from what we are told, is supposed to uphold these three virtues:

Freedom, Honor, and Spiritualism

These should be naturally contrasted with the Alliance’s core tenets:

Bureaucracy, Nobility, and the Church (or more structured western belief systems, Church of the Holy Light, Elune worship, etc)

The Alliance is structured as a mutual pact of various Kingdoms and Nation-states that is overseen by the ‘High King’ who acts as mediator and military authority.

The Alliance, was constructed as an alliance to protect the world from larger threats and therefore try to impose protections and laws on the world that would be in their best interest. They also have a tendency to impose their will on weaker nations and have a long streak of racism and effectively seeing themselves as ‘the world’s police force’ which they believe gives them juristiction on most of Azeroth.

The Horde in contrast are those smaller nations that banded together for mutual protection and strength. Their interests ñargely concern with being able to maintain their freedoms and traditional ways of life, some of which the Alliance view as dangerous. Though aspects like fel, shadow/void, and chaotic magics aren’t necessarily celebrated in the Horde, they are still recognized as having a right to be practiced within the Horde.

The Horde is elected by respected leaders, elders, and heroes whom the people prop up, instead of nobility and bloodlines like what is seen with the Alliance.

Most of the conflict that arises with the Horde and the Alliance comes from the difference in philosophy over Law and Freedom.

Whereas the Alliance wishes to impose a rule of law, often constructed by values only held within the cultures of its member-states, the Horde wishes to provide freedom, which often comes at the cost of times of instability or chaos.

In other words, the Horde views the Alliance as rigid and authoritarian, which is often racist.

The Alliance view the Horde as chaotic and dangerous, which is prone to corruption.

A good way to illustrate this would be a storyline wherein the Horde funds/aids rebel cells within a neutral nation while the Alliance funds/aids the ruling elite within that nation. Each side hoping that whatever side they back will impose their values.

At least that would be my idea for how the factions should be treated in the future.

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“The Horde” is an organization that contains:

Two semi-distinct confederations of Orcish Clans
Two distinct confederations of Tauren Tribes
At least two separate Troll Tribes
One ancient hegemonic Troll kingdom/Empire
One formerly-human now-undead Kingdom
Two ancient Highborne Elven Kingdoms
One sprawling Goblin business conglomerate
One… network of Vulpera trading caravans?
One… Pandaren… Temple?
One Dracthyr “Weyrn”???
A bunch of random Earthen who may or may not actually be in the faction, it’s not super clear

The idea that this… thing… can go back to “The good old days” is absurd. This isn’t WCIII anymore, “The Horde” isn’t a handful of scrappy “monster races” making a home for themselves in a desert. It’s an extremely complex, world-spanning network of nations and organizations that - often - have barely anything in common.

The idea of centralizing under a single warchief is an idea that hasn’t made sense for a very long time. It should have been done away with after Garrosh at the latest.

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only way to fix the horde, and consequentially the lore, is reboot the story prior SoO and give a different finale there with y’shaarj as proper final villain.

Or do a 100 years timeskip where we need a warchief once again

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To be fair, you could have an exceedingly similar breakdown of the makeup of the Alliance. The Azerothian Horde was always a collection of separate kingdoms/cultures working together for survival and/or political purposes. Just like the Alliance. The narrative finally caught up to that fact when the leadership system was moved to the Horde Council instead of just being “What the Warchief says is what happens” arrangement. Though Thrall was always pretty casual abut allowing the non-orc races handle their own internal affairs so long as they didn’t contradict or cause major political problems for the Horde on a larger scale if they could be avoided. Unfortunately, most of the big problems were things that just happened spontaneously, were due to long standing territorial disputes and/or bad actor exceptions that opened whole cans of worms. And then we got into the whole Garrosh through Sylvanas phase that was just a nightmare for everybody in and outside of the Horde.

It’s rather funny that Blizz has put this big deal into the idea of Elven re-unification. But Those two kingdoms are effectively a single unified High Elven kingdom now. They were effectively re-unified at the end of Legion when the Blood Elves offered to help the Nightborne understand how to deal with the problems and trauma of being cut off from their source of magic after regaining control of it. Lor’themar and Thalyssra getting married was just icing on that cake of the Blood Elves and the Nightborne already being reunifying under the Horde banner.

2/3 of the elves has been re-unified for years. The Night Elves were always the holdouts. And that’s mostly due to Tyrande being Tyrande.

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I do like the direction your going with this, I do want to ask how you rectify less centralization with a transnational legislative branch. Why I am pushing for more centralization is that because they are mostly made up of smaller tribes and nations, they need to band together more to make up the difference.

Even in game the Darkspear and the Tauren almost never deploy by themselves, its always as part of the greater Horde. In contrast the independent nations of the Alliance do, do their own things with maybe the exception of gnomes. This is why I want more of an EU approach so they can have more ties together especially with trade but are still independent.

I’d be fine with this. But also it’d make sense if they finally update Org and Grommash Hold to reflect the changes. Instead of the awkward bug of still having Rokhan there with Saurfang. I always like to play a game of who will be there. Because it could be any one of our leaders that they offed over the years or got rid of.

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the horde can best be understood as a radically successful nation building project that has shot the quality of life, technological capacity and influence of its constituent peoples forward like, hundreds of years.

in vanilla they were struggling to survive. they are now a globally influential political union irrigating deserts, building railways and portal networks and naval fleets. the horde has a lot to be proud of, if blizzard would just let them be proud instead of repeatedly villain batting them and relitigating those villain bats.

imo, that’s the horde fantasy that should be focused on, beyond blood and thunder warchief stuff. the horde is the faction that has energy and motion and that, like, believes in a future.

we don’t need a warchief. what we need is screentime.

and for calia menethil to be tied to a rocket and fired into the sun

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Don’t even get me started on this.

Org looking the way it did originally makes sense given there wasn’t a lot of resources available when Thrall, Cairne and Gazlowe first built it. But seriously it’s silly that it still is designed the way it is currently. Especially after the enhanced fortification it received under Garrosh.

And for the love of the cosmos, why haven’t the Echo Isles been upgraded to an actual functional Troll settlement? The place should look like a mini ZG/ZA at this point. We defeated Zalazane back in Vanilla. Why does the place still look like a temporary troll refugee camp?

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I understand where you’re coming from, I’m not exactly high on Calia and see her more of an Alliance puppet, BUT she’s here and her position and history make it impossible to ignore her without sidelining the Forsaken. I would rather they find another story beat for her that can resonate with Horde players rather than just throwing her away.

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I hope the major cities see another upgrade and please get rid of the metal plates in the ground in Org. I’d really like it to be some fusion of old and new Org that makes better sense and looks better. I don’t mind the fortification, but those pathways make no sense at all. I’d like stuff that reflects the different tribes of Trolls and Orcs. Along with other races getting their own stuff presented.

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I’ve never seen her as an Alliance puppet. Narratively she’s always been sympathetic to the Forsaken. Hell her constant attempts to push for acceptance of them with the living humans of the Eastern Kingdoms is what got her killed in the first place.

She just unfortunately suffered from the same problem a lot of Horde characters did. Lazy writers who either didn’t know what to actually do with her properly, or didn’t care.

I mean, there is literally zero reason there hasn’t been a story element about her wanting to rebuild Lorderon into an actual functioning city again. If for no other reason that to better facilitate logistics with the non-dead members of the Horde that travel through and/or need to be stationed there for various military and non-military activities.

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I don’t see this at all. Her double speak between us and the Alliance. Her making deals with the Alliance.

She tells the Alliance that she wants to be Queen. Tells the Forsaken that she’d never dare. Gives back any Forsaken gains to the Alliance. She comes off as a plant.

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Yeah that’s just more writer stupidity and inconsistency. She’s always held that she didn’t want to be queen even when she was alive and running/hiding from Arthas’ kill squads hunting her.

Honestly the writers really need to just sit down and get things with the major players on a consistent foundation again to clean up the narrative laziness from when Chris first left.

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It’s crazy how much Calia Menethil accidentally reads as like, a puppet dictator planted by Alliance intelligence organizations to try and keep the Forsaken friendly and compliant to alliance interests.

It’d be pretty smart writing if it was at all on purpose.

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No she really has not. She’s instead gone back and forth on this. Which is suspicious.

I don’t know if it’s that or that they just want to leave things open to build up later on. Because they are painting the light as not necessarily being good. This could be purposeful.

This video goes over our experiences with her and why she comes off as suspicious. I don’t trust her.

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I’ve always been suspicious of her after she came back just because the Naaru rezed her. I’ve never really trusted them in general. Even less so after Rejection of the Gift.

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And it could be what Blizz wants us to do. Some of us will be suspicious of her, some will accept her. They could justify that skepticism. They could justify that trust. It could be how they make her different from Sylvanas.

But what really bothers me the most is not that they just are taking neutral or Alliance leaning characters and making them Horde, it’s that they aren’t building up actual Horde characters with this. Blood Elves were once a part of the Alliance. It wouldn’t make sense for me a Blood Elf player to hate her just because of that link. But it’s everything else. There are context clues or red flags. And it wouldn’t be as bad if they had a strong Horde along with this.

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