Real Change, When?

[Squeaksmcgee-area-52]

I don’t see DF as a disaster. I see it as a positive and nice break from what we’ve had as the last 2 expacs were somewhat progressively depressing.

BfA wasn’t terrible but it was convoluted and then it got some depressing elements added to it as it came to an end.
SLs was just depressing throughout, imo.

So DF is a much needed relief. I do hope we can get the war back in Warcraft though, in some form that will be interesting and that they’re able to create a cohesive, sensible story line to go with it.

Time will tell.

[Soulebreaker-hyjal]

The only thing I didn’t like about DF is Zaralek. And it’s because they nerfed it four days after releasing it, killing off the area. I don’t think it’d have been a negative if they just left it alone. Sometimes they just get in their own way.

[Faerinath-area-52]

@Boogz-shadowmoon

no meaningful method of progression outside of raid and M+

BfA, Shadowlands, and Legion all had this in the form of Covenants, Artifact Weapons, Heart of Azeroth, and so forth.

But the community whined and we lost a lot of the content we had for end game progression that wasn’t just M+ and Raid.

@Boogz-shadowmoon

Over reliance on world quests

I mean, it’s not over-reliance. The PvE end game for world content is World Quests, they just have now incentivized them more with additional rewards for completing enough of them.

@Boogz-shadowmoon

crafting was improved, but still sucks

How does it still suck? Have you played other games that have crafting? Like what about WoW’s crafting sucks now?

@Boogz-shadowmoon

missing a lot that the game should have.

Like what? Because most of the features it did have, got gutted by community feedback.

So elaborate.

[Naah-illidan]

@Piddy-uther

So, the alternative is to have distinct paths. Like now with PvP. Sure, you can run M+ for gear, but it’s really lousy PvP gear, much like PvP gear is “just ok” M+ gear. So there’s no real motivation to do both, but more importantly, if you invest in one path, you’re pretty well committed since you can’t pick up where you left off in the other path.

They’re trying to fix this somewhat.

A large reason why I don’t do M+ is because I have to upgrade all my PvP gear with massive amounts of honor, to reach a level sub-par to PvE gear, but still be allowed to do some M+, and for the most part, I’ve just given up on it.

We’ll be able to use those drake things next patch and apply them to upgrade PvP gear for PvE, which is nice, but wayyyyy too late imo.

I’ve literally vendored hundreds of them, lol. They are a reward for PvP, and yet, do nothing for PvP, right now.

[Faerinath-area-52]

@Piddy-uther

So, the alternative is to have distinct paths. Like now with PvP. Sure, you can run M+ for gear, but it’s really lousy PvP gear, much like PvP gear is “just ok” M+ gear. So there’s no real motivation to do both, but more importantly, if you invest in one path, you’re pretty well committed since you can’t pick up where you left off

@Naah-illidan

They’re trying to fix this somewhat.

In my opinion they’ve been doing the opposite. In BfA you used to get rewarded for what you did seperately.

You did PvP? Here’s a PvP item.
You did M+? Here’s some nice M+ gear
You did Raid? Here’s some Raid Loot.

Like we used to get 2 or 3 chests per week if we did all 3 activities. Now we have to chose just 1 item no matter how much of the game we play.

Shoe Horning us to pick 1 lane and stick to it.

[Quakedee-aerie-peak]

You can always leave the game I mean, ffs how many expansions do you waste money on in order to well not play a game that sucks so much for you? Waste of time and money for sure.

[Adaia-moon-guard]

How is dreamsurges, timerifts, etc not progression for you open world types who have no idea what you want to do besides complain?

[Faerinath-area-52]

@Adaia-moon-guard

How is dreamsurges, timerifts, etc not progression for you open world types

All that is, is literal Raid Catch-Up gear, that comes typically quite a bit after the Raid had dropped. So if you even do just LFR as most do. Then you’ll probably be decently on par with the Event gear. Making it more for mog.

The “open world types” want engaging or meaningful content that isn’t just M+ or Raid spamming at end game. Which WoW used to have with Artifacts, Order Halls, Covenants, and even the Heart of Azeroth and Wrathion Cape.

Dragonflight hasn’t had any of that. The only end game World Content for PvE aside from when new story drops, has been Rep Farming.

[Naah-illidan]

Just play Classic or HC or something. That’s where I’m at.

Vanilla was a masterpiece of a game, even with all of its flaws, and has earned a spot in history.

It has been cemented as a unique gaming phenomenon to most.

I was at a video game exhibit not too long ago at the Smithsonian in DC, and they had a section about WoW, it was a great read lol.

I just don’t like what retail has become- a cutesy game about ducks and doggos and fluffers, and smooth dragons, it’s toothless compared to what it used to be.

[Adaia-moon-guard]

There’s been so much side content added to the game in each patch I have no idea how an open world player isn’t having the time of their life right now, lol. If anyone is starving this expansion its the raiders/m+ crowd you guys hate so much.

[Boogz-shadowmoon (Boogz)]

@Akston-area-52

What ideas of yours did I actually shoot down?

Am I allowed to say I am not a office worker, or will you play the victim that I shot that idea down, too?

Needlessly antagonistic, smart guy reply. I don’t need to play the victim. Ignoring you is the biggest gut punch you can get. You’ll get no more attention from me.

[Ssear-zuljin]

what? I havent done a world quest since 10.5, You can get normal raid Ilvl without stepping foot in a dungeon of any kind, and crafting is the most viable with the most depth ever.

Sounds like you dont like MMOs

[Akston-area-52]

@Boogz-shadowmoon

Needlessly antagonistic, smart guy reply. I don’t need to play the victim. Ignoring you is the biggest gut punch you can get. You’ll get no more attention from me

so lets recap.

“Stop shooting down my ideas”

–“What ideas did I shoot down?”

“Wow. Ignored. Also you are antagonistic for saying I play the victim after I called you a bored office worker (which was also antagonistic but I dont play by the same rules).”

[Faerinath-area-52]

@Adaia-moon-guard

If anyone is starving this expansion its the raiders/m+ crowd you guys hate so much.

I mean, considering the Mega Dungeon Just Came Out, that’s not really true.

@Adaia-moon-guard

There’s been so much side content added to the game in each patch I have no idea how an open world player isn’t having the time of their life right now

Again, when a story patch drops, that’s usually well accepted. But the Dreamsurge or Time Rift Events which are the exact same almost, aren’t really the Open World End Game Content anyone is talking about, when they say they want more of it.

Which I’m not trying to get into a debate of what player type is starving and which isn’t.

But acting like these world events that are reskinned is engaging progression, is the same energy as saying here is a ground mount recolor for KSM.

Because let’s be honest, the most work in WoW for rewards has always come from Raids (which is fine). But I’m just saying what most Open World Content Enjoyers are actually getting at.

[Gorduk-grobbulus]

@Akston-area-52

When has there ever been meaningful methods of progression outside of raid and 5 man content?

TBC, Wrath, Cata and MoP had pretty decent rep grind rewards. Oh, Vanilla had some decent rep grind rewards too.

Edit: I remember grinding reps in Vanilla and TBC for decent gear.

[Akston-area-52]

@Gorduk-grobbulus

TBC, Wrath, Cata and MoP had pretty decent rep grind rewards. Oh, Vanilla had some decent rep grind rewards too.

But no where on par with the gear rewards from raiding.

[Gorduk-grobbulus]

Did you say 5 man dungeons in your post? Are we moving the goal posts now?

[Faerinath-area-52]

@Gorduk-grobbulus

TBC, Wrath, Cata and MoP had pretty decent rep grind rewards. Oh, Vanilla had some decent rep grind rewards

BfA, Shadowlands, and Legion also all had some nice rewards and cosmetics from grinding out the end game systems and rep.

DF is the first expansion really that lacks that level of system grind for reward for the Open Worlder.

[Ssear-zuljin]

what… You can get normal raid equivalent loot without stepping foot in a single piece of instanced content right now. This is a bold faced lie.

[Akston-area-52]

@Gorduk-grobbulus

Did you say 5 man dungeons in your post? Are we moving the goal posts now?

Fair, I should have clarified. Because clearly when we are talking about 5 man progression today, we are referring to m+. A system that did not exist previously.

It was my fault for changing the terminology from what was originally used by the person who I responded to

@Boogz-shadowmoon

no meaningful method of progression outside of raid and M+

This is the original statement I responded to and the context of my reply.

The person in question is clearly equating raid and m+ in their gear progression. Before m+, 5 man content was not an end game pillar on par with raiding for gear progression.