Yeah I’m mostly coming from the perspective of what they’re saying they want to go for
I honestly don’t even think there’s anything wrong with melee SV, it feels pretty hunter like and isn’t even like a true melee spec but at the same time you can’t just have that as the only spec that feels like it works well together (just my opinion) while leaving the ranged specs super shallow
And since they stated their goal with legion with making SV melee was they wanted to just have MM talents to give you back that SV feel… I mean they could have just gone for that. Or just multiple talent choices that do that, either way (honestly would be balanced more if it was multiple talent choices).
MM has seriously struggled since their Legion revamp. Diluting their tree with SV talents really isn’t ideal, as you end up with stuff like legion’s black arrow and revamped explosive shot. MM could use some attention to fix its own issues before accommodating the scrapped SV playstyle, imo, unless we’re reworking MM’s gameplay again.
From a PvE standpoint, MoP/WoD survival and MM had significant differences in terms of the pacing of their rotations, strengths, and weaknesses. The differences absolutely warranted a separate specialization. MM emphasized positioning, hard-hitting shots, and ST/2-target DPS. They had a much bigger burst window and their damage was more predictable. SV focused on sustained damage and performed well single target, but was also adequate in AoE situations with Serpent Spread. SV provided reactive gameplay, with ToTH and LNL procs.
I raided extensively as both and enjoyed being able to swap between the two different playstyles depending on the encounter’s design. As an aside - hunter specs were in a really good place in WoD. Was nice to actually have well-tuned specs during the BRF era.
I guess my take on it is that Melee SV isn’t bad, but removing ranged SV for it was a big mistake I’d like to see addressed. Melee SV has been leaps and bounds more entertaining than the other two specs in PvP, but it’s incredibly simplistic in a PvE setting - even moreso than ranged SV was 2 expansions back. Mongoose bite has a cool animation and KC refunds are cool, but I found the spec as a whole to be lacking depth in a raid setting.
An entire specialization was removed, which is why people are still frustrated. MM going through two revamps in two expansions has hardly helped, either.
I was saying something similar along the lines of this. to bring back the mobility portion of Rsv into Mm by giving Mm more options for sustainable damage with out having to use aimed shot,
or have a trade off of where You can have a spell for example black arrow/piercing shot replace aimed shot but was allowed to continue working with Mms other mechanics like trick shots, precise shots, double tap, ect.
Similar to Msv choice between tip of the spear/ mongoose bite/ flanking strike.
My problem is basically what they did to make room for MSV.
And how they tried to justify that decision by stating that the old SV wasn’t unique enough compared to MM. That it did not have a niche of it’s own.
When in truth, it was probably more along the lines of “someone early on in the dev process of Legion, came up with the idea that adding a melee spec to the class was an easy way to add in more diversity and uniqueness”.
And they did not bother with any attempts at improving the spec we actually had. The spec that so many players loved.
They could’ve done this.
But again, I question how much they could’ve actually given us via talent options from MM. And I also question the outcome of having it being based entirely on choosing talents.
How well it would’ve worked out in the end.
Hence my suggestion to add it in as a 4th spec option. Especially since that allows for a design which would add even more diversity as well as additional strengths to the class as a whole.
I hear you Dip. The problem here is that many players aren’t just looking for access to more mobility and/or utility options.
Many players are after the theme, the fantasy that RSV provided.
Oh yes, I’m sure if only Bepples acts the way you want then you will just call up the dev’s and tell them to change things and they will jump to your bidding. Get a life and stop trying to enforce your ideal personal interactions on others.
This new group of developers are far too stubborn to go back on a change. Yes, they may reinvent it some, but not to the point it goes back on their original changes.
Remember, most of the original developers have been moved or have left all together, and their empty seats have been refilled by other developers from other departments. As such, this new group has decided they need to put their own stamp on the game, and believe all their reworks will keep the game going for longer.
They are all far to confident that they know far more what we want than players do and will never admit when a change does not go over well.
The quest is will MSV get another rework or tweaking? Is it at a point that players are happy and is attracting new people?
Sound to me like what Ion is saying is that they won’t be making drastic changes to spec’s anymore like they did with SV, going from ranged to melee
However OP this doesn’t mean they won’t switch it back right now, they most likely will do something in the future hopefully
I will say this tho, if they had switched BM from ranged to melee I would have quit the game for good as I main a BM and I signed up for BM for three reasons, 1. Ranged 2. Loque’nahak 3. King Krush
I feel like the same three RSV/Anti MSV people are trying to hijack yet another thread.
For shame! Don’t y’all have a 1500 count post, that has served well as your RSV echo chamber?
Anyway… Yes! It seems like RSV isn’t coming back, which is a good thing!
Let’s hope that the small majority of people who liked that playstyle, can find something similar in the future, through a more flexible MM talent tree. Then everyone is happy!
I do not. I have flat out stated that I do not agree with how Bepples go about advocating for the return of RSV as a playable spec option for the class.
But no matter how he does it. When there are actual ways to get that playstyle back without hurting existing specs, it is NOT justified to say things like for example what Tal said there.
I can very much understand why you guys would not want MSV to be removed. Same as how we who loved RSV didn’t want that spec removed.
The problem I noticed was that there wasn’t really much in the way of wrong on WoD classes. The Hollywood class Warrior was a problem, but we all know why that was. As a Marks back then, I was lucky that only two specs were practically hard counters(Prot Warr and Balance). But there’s no denying it that WoD was critically a failure of an expansion overall. I think that’s why Blizzard went overboard with Legion and artifact weapons; it was their attempt to breathe in new life into the game. While it provided so much delicious fluff, the crunch became awfully bitter, like a sandwich cookie of pure unsweetened cocoa.
Blizzard must have given no holy damns about the actual meta, because it was all jacked up since Legion. I actually thought BFA was the one expansion to fix what Legion broke, but the best I ever saw was tune-ups and tune-downs. It brings it up to say if BFA couldn’t fix Legion, how is Shadowlands going to fix BFA? And why wouldn’t I retire while I’m still “doing just fine” to quote a certain destro arena junkie? Because there’s a time coming when I’m not going to be doing just fine.
It’s very telling how the best arguments for SV not being ranged is “the people who want it to be ranged are meanies!”.
Tone policing doesn’t work. Whether or not SV specifically goes to being a ranged spec, or we get some form of ranged SV back as a separate spec or a watered-down Marksmanship option, will depend on factors far bigger and more important than people bickering on a forum.
Changing SV back to ranged with some sort of BM melee non-default option (i.e. talent) would, in my view, be the best way to move forward. But it presents significant difficulties and even now, with SV still floundering, it is fully understandable why they don’t want to do it. It would be yet another SV rework, for the third expansion in a row, and that starts to really detract from the development on the other two Hunter specs. It would also require some sort of addressing of Legion’s content portraying SV as a melee spec with the artifact weapon and the characters. I fully believe that Celestalon pushed for SV to be made melee in Legion in particular because he knew it would be the hardest to undo if (when) it went badly. I found evidence of him implicitly supporting melee SV as far back as February 2014, just 5 months after he was promoted to a lead position.
All that said, I think they will have failed to live up to their philosophy of “reinforcing class fantasy over spec fantasy” if SV doesn’t have a ranged weapon in some capacity next expansion. No, animations using a ranged weapon do not count.
Did anyone else hear “going back to class instead of spec” and think, “they made SV melee just so they could move Hunters back to more of a classic feel” with some melee and some ranged abilities?
Possibility.