Raiding is too Elitist. Lets open up WoW!

Gameplay Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
1

A minority of players raid at the highest level. Most players will baulk at the time commitment and dedication required to raid at the highest level.

Making raiding more accessible doesn’t mean making raiding easier. It just means that players will feel encouraged or able to raid at the highest level.

This makes more content accessible to more players. It gives Activision a better return on their investment and players a better return on their monthly subscription and hopefully longer term subscriptions.

The key here is crafting and questing rewards.

Surely the highest level of blacksmithing should reward a player with the highest level of plate. Or the highest level of tailoring should reward a player with the highest level of cloth. It just makes sense. You can build an argument for engineering and jewelcrafting too. All professions really.

Thus players are able, through gathering and crafting, to obtain the highest level of gear required to make instances viable. Without that gear they will stand no chance. Not even a carry chance (gear check doorway boss takes care of that).

Must grind out instances. OR craft. Or quest.

Yup. Surely somebody who has completed every zone’s quests should qualify for the highest level of instances. It just makes sense.

Why should somebody’s dedication to raiding be held in higher regard to somebody’s dedication to RPG content? Crafting and questing is a valid and equal part of the RPG experience.

Plus, making the gear available doesn’t make somebody a good raider. You still need ability.

Raiders don’t get sufficient reward if everybody can already have the best gear before entering a final raid? Yes, raiders do get rewarded. They have the ability to complete the raid and the achievements to prove it!

Also, leaving the door open to “non-raiders” gives Blizzard more return for their investment in instances and helps ensure the viability of the dwindling raiding community.

Heck, some players, on raiding for the first time, might actually be good! They might actually decide to ditch quest completionism and crafting and opt for dedicated raids and raid guild from then on!

Consider that professions really are poorly implemented in WoW, when compared to all other MMOs. By revamping professions with one of the end goals being the highest level of raid gear, Activision can argue that the dollar investment will be good for shareholders as it will help to sustain the game.

Thus, opening up raiding and revamping professions will be good for the long term viability of the game. Shareholders win. Players win. Dedicated raider will discover new buddies who will hopefully become hard-core raiders too!

Lovely when we all win.

2

I am so confused. I read all of that, and I still have no idea what you’re looking to get changed. What do crafting and mythic raiding have to do with each other? Are you suggesting that crafters should be able to make mythic level gear? What does that have to do with mythic raiding being more acceptable?

3 Likes
3

@Fyrelocked.

Yes. As I said, crafters should be able to create whatever is the best gear at the time.

Part of a total crafting overhaul.

This allows players who are dedicated to other parts of WoW to raid as if they have done the hard yards of lower level raiding in order to obtain the requisites for higher level raiding.

This puts crafting on the same level of importance as raiding. Top level crafters get into top level raids.

Yup, those same players probably not skilled at raiding. But the content is accessible to them.

Result is that ALL instance content is available to crafters.

Crafting is therefore meaningful.

Of course just giving crafters top level gear without a total overhaul of crafting would be really bad.

I mentioned but did not expand that questing should also reward entry into top level raiding. As per my previous post. This would mean that questing rewards or even questing per se would need an overhaul.

My idea is NOT original and indeed can be found in other games.

I do not want to mention other games as it invites troll-like reactionary rants and distracts from my argument. Trust me that crafting and questing as implemented in other games, especially MMOs, is more up to date and engaging and rewarding.

TLDR: Yes I am suggesting crafters are able to create mythic level gear. I argue that crafting (not as presently implemented in WoW) should be rewarded with the highest level of gear as crafting is just as legitimate an activity in an all encompassing MMO such as WoW.

4

Your premise makes zero sense. If you weren’t interested in the LFR, Normal or Heroic raids, then why would you ever need mythic gear?

You simply want the best gear without putting in the effort and this is a poor attempt to disguise that as some kind of entitlement.

Raiding is already more accessible then it ever has been. And you can get geared up so quickly as it is. Go do a Warfront and get a free 370. Kill a world boss - it takes 5 minutes - and you get a chance for 355. Do a single mythic+ each week and get more easy loot in your chest.

If you were really so interested in Mythic raiding then you would have been running the normal and heroic versions by now.

And besides all of that. If you just walked into mythic - with crafted mythic gear - you still wouldn’t have a chance. The mechanics are hard, and the progression from Normal to Heroic to Mythic is designed specifically to add more and more elements and challenges as you go. You would know that if you really had any interest in raiding.

5 Likes
5

No…no…

Obviously -everyone- can do Mythic raiding and equivalent content.
It’s just elitist raiders gating gear and raid team access that is stopping them.

Didn’t you get the memo?

6

WoW is partially about gear and the developers usually make the best looking stuff available at the highest end of PvP or PvE.

Crafting should be an alternative path to obtaining the best looking gear.

There is nothing in the MMO meta which says the best looking gear should be reserved for raiders because raiders are on a kind of pedestal.

In some MMOs a real lot of effort and time is required, similar to the time investment of raiding but arguably more so, to skill up crafting.

Thus it is also appropriate that crafters are suitably rewarded. By rewarding crafters with the same gear as top level raid drops then players are on an equal footing in terms of relevance.

Lore wise it makes sense too. That same lovingly crafted gear is used by bosses and they drop it when defeated.

A side benefit is that crafters get steered towards raiding, thus boosting the numbers of raiders and some of those crafters will be attracted to the highest difficulty of raiding as they discover through practice that they are competent.

A matter of Activision economics too. Dwindling numbers of raiders. Hardly justifies the incredible investment in that part of the MMO. This gets more people using the raid content.

I do appreciate that dedicated raiders will detest that the crafters can also obtain the best looking gear. They feel they have a sense of entitlement.

With a rejuvenated system of crafting, crafters should also proudly proclaim their entitlement.

7

This doesn’t make sense at all. If quests were filled with group based mechanics and lots of them, maybe. They aren’t. They are trivial enough that even the newest player with whatever home brew leveling spec they’ve devised can do them. As trivial content should be. Then you read stuff about your spec (such as how it works) and work on not standing in fire. Eventually, people will either challenge themselves or they’ll play the game as a lunch break pokemon game. No shame in that. Let’s keep things interesting for good players and let the poor players work on themselves, shall we.

1 Like
8

They are both individual pursuits. They are both valid parts of the MMO genre. Players who specialise in any of the main parts of an MMO are equally entitled to enjoy the best rewards. If that is defined as the best looking character gear then so be it.

Crafters and dedicated questers should all receive the best looking gear. Raiders doing the toughest raids would also receive the best looking gear. You call that gear “mythic” gear as though only mythic raiders are entitled to that gear. But all activities in WoW are equally entitled. So lets just call it the best looking gear rather than mythic gear.

Because it looks cool. It is a sign of completion. A badge of honour to be worn proudly in your capital city. If people need to know how you obtained that gear then a quick check of achievements would satisfy any curiosity. RPers would have other means. Also players like to collect gear too. Lots of valid reasons to pursue gear in this game.

But completionist questing and enjoyment of its lore is also a big effort. In fact a bigger effort. Grinding out Archaeology to its completion is a bigger effort. Grinding out the “Salty” achievement is a bigger effort.

This is all a part of a total PROFESSION overhaul. That is what I am mainly advocating.

I am not disguising a sense of entitlement. I am saying that raiders are not exclusively entitled to the best rewards. So I am openly advocating entitlement. For many players!

Also, I am arguing that this creates a great pathway into raiding! The player already has the gear so now feels enabled! (Just will be really bad initially, lol)

Great. You can carry on unchanged. No need for you to be worried. Your only concern should be that with more players being steered towards raiding (through the profession overhaul I am advocating) then you will eventually have more competition for your raid spot. Watch out!

That would be true of any player who is not raiding. If you were interested in Pet Battles you’d be doing that. If you were interested in doing every single quest you’d be doing that. You have thrown that in there as a distraction from my argument as though the fact I am not currently raiding on this account gives my voice less entitlement.

Yes I have said that multiple times. But some of us, in that situation, would be inspired to have a go at it. We’d become as good as you or better and then there’d be more raiders and that is what is needed in WoW!

That is common knowledge. Obtaining the “Salty” achievement is also hard and also an equally legitimate pursuit and an equally legitimate entitlement to the best looking gear. Historically, raiders get achievements and tons of cool looking gear.

Raiders are no more special than other parts of WoW.

But this is all a part of a total profession overhaul.

It doesn’t adversely impact raiders. It draws more players to raiding.

Therefore raiders have no need to worry about a total profession overhaul.

9

No matter how good your gear if you don’t have the skill to do an at level mythic raid you won’t get far. Yes gear is one part of mythic raiding but it is only a small component of succeeding at mythic raiding. All your suggestion would do is frustrate players at all ends of the skill spectrum. Players with low skill (but good crafted gear) still won’t be able to contribute to killing bosses, frustrating themselves and their team mates. Players with high skill will resent carrying people with good gear but low skills.

Raiding is accessible to everyone. That is what LFR was created for. You see the same bosses as mythic raiders just at a much lower difficulty level. As far as the aesthetics of the gear, you have the ability to go back later (once the raid is outlevelled) and collect those looks so even the gear’s appearance is not denied to anyone.

I would like to see them put more thought into crafting. For instance they could make it more interactive with dependencies between different crafts so that more crafts were involved in making high level items. Your suggestion, though, is just a recipe for disaster.

1 Like
10

That is no reason to deny crafters the highest level of gear. As I have said, some crafters might be inspired to raid. That is a side benefit to a total crafting overhaul.

But crafters are equally entitled to the good looking stuff NOW!!! Think what a boon this would be on RP servers too! An RP crafter is equally entitled as a raider to the best rewards. Both players work hard!

You argue from the stand point of (a) players blindly trying to raid when inept, (b) that bad raiders will annoy the good ones.

That is what LFR is for. For players to learn. You said as much.

But not all crafters will want to raid. Only downside is that more players will be doing LFR and servers might not cope. Unlikely, lol.

Cross craft synergy is a great idea but many crafters also will want to pursue only that craft which is most relevant to them. Mages and priests would primarily be focused upon tailoring, for example, by and large.

11

Why do crafters need high level gear if not for raiding? Genuine question.

If it’s just for the aesthetics then why not give professions recipes for great new transmog gear? That would be a genuinely good idea and would give wow professions something similar to some of the asian MMOs where there is a great emphasis on how toons look and some really wild outfits.

If it’s to learn raiding then they don’t actually need mythic level gear to do LFR. You can do LFR in a mix of crafted gear and quest rewards right now.

I think you’re making an assumption without evidence here. I have multiple toons and all professions because it’s both handy for my main to have access to profession items and I also genuinely enjoy crafting as part of my wow experience. My main (this toon) has been an alchemist since TBC so I use my rogue for blacksmithing even though she can’t wear any of the gear I can craft. I don’t think I’m unusual in the way I do professions in wow.

3 Likes
12

Answer:

Also, why not? They are equally entitled as raiders to the best gear. Their MMO pursuit is equally as valid and important.

Sure. Allow for cross profession synergy as well as singlar pursuits and even if a profession cannot match the gear able to be worn! Why not! Player’s free choice!

Not at all. It’s just to get the gear as explained above. Having the best gear is reward for hard work. Whether raiding, crafting, etc. That gear is required for raiding.

Players who choose not to craft get their best gear by progressing through instance difficulty levels as present.

13

I’m confused. Is the OP actually under the impression that gear is the gating issue for the masses to be involved in mythic raiding? I may be misreading this, but if that is the implication you need to realize gear isn’t the issue. A fundamental lack of being able to play at a moderate level is the problem of the masses and all the gear in the world won’t execute a DPS rotation, or manage mechanics.

Should crafters be able to make high end gear? Sure, but it shouldn’t be on par with mythic gear unless they are raiding mythic already to get relevant mats. Heroic level raiding to craft the heroic gear, etc. Anything outside of that is just wanting gear without doing the equivalent level of effort.

1 Like
14

Never implied or suggested that. Talking about a crafting overhaul and reward for equal level of diligence and dedication. Nothing more actually.

As a raider not interested in crafting you have nothing to worry about. Except if a crafter then decides to try out raiding and they become better than you.

Same as giving players a heap of max level battle pets then sending them out against other players or NPcs. Initially they will suck.

15

I think you’re mistaken if you think that crafting requires the same amount of work as mythic raiding. As someone who has done both (admittedly I haven’t raided mythic in a while but I do raid heroic and that’s work enough), the two are by no means equivalent. Unless you are proposing that crafters be required to do far more work than they do now? People already complain about recipes being gated behind reputations and other relatively easy things, I don’t think making professions more onerous will be the winner you seem to think it would be.

4 Likes
16

Haven’t read any of the OPs follow up blabs, but judging by other posters he wants gear without earning it.

Sure let’s craft heroic/mythic level items, but it requires an activation reagent from the last boss.

As others have said, gear ≠ skill. You could be all decked out in 390 gear but an LFR idiot would probably have issues getting past mythic cannon fodder let alone bosses.
Would an LFR idiot even be able to be carried by heroic/mythic raiders?

1 Like
17

I know right. The other posters are totally mistaken. Never said anywhere that Blizzard should hand out the best gear for no work.

With a total crafting overhaul then of course crafters will be equally entitled to own the best gear. The “work” of crafting is in terms of effort and dedication and commitment the same as the “work” of raiding.

Most posters here are arguing from the elitist standpoint that only raiders are entitled to the best gear and that consequently it should be called “raid gear”.

Please note I am advocating a crafting overhaul.

Agree with lots of what you say. A revamp of crafting should make it more interesting. An ultimate goal of the best cloth armour for tailors would also ensure the end goals are on a par with raiding.

Most other popular MMOs have a far superior crafting system. I will NOT name names as this thread would descend into fan boy rubbish.

18

This I can agree with. Wow’s professions are lacklustre. I don’t agree that top level crafted gear should be the same as or equivalent to mythic gear even with a crafting overhaul. There’s absolutely no need for that gear (ie for that stat level) if you aren’t raiding at that level.

I do think it would be great if professions gave you the ability to make more awesome cosmetic or quality of life stuff in return for a high degree of effort/engagement. Truly though I think you’re posting this in the wrong place. You’d get more buy in and great ideas if you posted in the professions forum or even in General. The ability to make high end gear will not turn crafters into raiders and there’s a good reason why the raiders in this forum are not agreeing with you.

2 Likes
19

The funniest thing is, he doesn’t even know what he’s asking for. The “other popular MMOs with far superior crafting systems,” have INSANE crafts that require guilds working together for MONTHS to craft ONE item, farming the most difficult raid bosses available to do it.

You can have that in wow too, but this guy won’t be able to participate.

1 Like
20

The thing is, no matter what changes are made to make high end raiding more available would be that there are always going to be people that spend more time than you to minmax their characters and just spend more time raiding to understand the ‘ins and outs’ of everything from their character to the raid encounters. This is pretty much a moot point because if there was crafting/gear availability it would just mean that those types of players quit earlier as that “grind” becomes less of a time commitment for any sort of gear checks relevant to the timing of a tier. Let’s be honest. WoW at it’s core is a very easy game and the progression through gear as it is right now is moreso a time commitment.
If you were able to farm and craft a full set of Mythic level gear in this current tier the VAST majority of progression raiders would have quit a long time ago. That feeling of gearing your character through raids and how the current warforging / titanforging system works is really the only incentive that raiders have to keep playing.

If you are interested in raiding there are plenty of opportunity to experience that within your gear level and the current system has a little bit of something for everyone.

To put it simply, what you are suggesting would simply ruin the game for a lot of people because the content would have been completed months ago.