Raid vs Mythic+ loot tables

Community General Discussion
811

M+ gear has been dropped to be almost the exactly between N raid and H Raid for gear power. Wanted to make sure this was stated. The power between tier is now 7 and not 15, with M raid having almost an entire tier of gear power available to them (only) for the final 3 bosses. This is a multi-tiered nerf

I’ve outlined solutions to this above, as well. We all have, that’s the core to this conversation. It’s not to destroy what you love, but to make sure what we all love is catered to and moved forward… Nobody is arguing away from raid gear being the gear dominance standard. People are arguing for less penalization (or more flexibility) for other content preference to be represented in game design (from an itemization standpoint, which is just a mathematical problem that doesn’t have to remain unsolved).

Handouts from easy content just to “keep players feeling ok” (read: 15’s and weekly chests, disincentive engagement and is poor design and just doesn’t feel fun either. This is subjective, but core to the communication here (read: community sentiment and stated needs)

812

And that’s a good thing. Mythic Raiding is by far the hardest thing in the game to do, purely based on numbers, it should be the most rewarding and this is coming from someone that prefers PVP > PVE.

I’ve seen some of your solutions and instantly disagreed with them as non-solutions, maybe you’ll recall, maybe you won’t as there’s been many conversations going on here. You’re pretending you have all the answers, where I’ve personally looked at them and just shook my head.

90% of the playerbase isn’t on the forum by the way. Most people are just happily playing the game. Do not pretend that all of the playerbase is on here.

813

And it is rewarded adequately, also MANY people have disagreed on this point with interesting notes. You’re point here is reductive and elitist lol.

To you? and for why? you’re quitting in 3 months anyway.

I’m not pretending anything. I’m proposing potential solution starting points (for Devs to consider in weeks ahead) to stated real problems. Solutions that could keep penalization at a minimum, while retaining core development design

No but it’s our outlet to discuss sentiment and promote ideas…

814

As it should be: And many people are wrong. It is infinitely harder to get 20 people that are skilled enough to push mythic content then pushing the relevant content of a 2v2, 3v3, or M+.

The only thing that may be arguable is RBG’s, and that’s only HALF the number of a Mythic Raid and unlike a Mythic Raid, you aren’t locked in with the same group. You can find new groups in all other paths as you will.

And I could quit in 3 months, I could quit in 6 months. I could quit in a year. I still payed $80 for the expac and I’m paying my monthly bill of service. That means we’re completely on equal playing field, it matters not if I want to quit TOMORROW. That is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

Again, you are pretending these “ideas” merit a look at to begin with. That anyone here’s ideas do. We are not game designers, we are not the ones who have the best ideas. Your game beliefs go directly against my game beliefs for example. If they implemented your ideas, I’d likely quit instantly. So now does that mean your beliefs were the correct ones? That mine were? No. We’re just people on the forum, throwing ideas out that don’t really merit much.

Luckily I’ve moreso been arguing the merits of the systems they have set in place and WHY they hold important so that’s where some of the weight of my own words come from.

815

You’re not wrong raw ilvl does not determine power. It’s just blizz’s idea of parallel progression is not complete segregation. At some point if you want BIS you have to engage.

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816

Nice to see we can take this conversation no further… We don’t agree on this, and thus we unfortunately cannot find a middle ground

Those that love and appreciate the game should be concerned, and continue to invest in game design ideas that may promote the longevity of the game and player base. Which may start with allowing for more catering to the player base itself…

Dude have some respect for the community lol, we’re also a community of professionals with diverse backgrounds. Our opinions and ideas should absolutely be valued and tested. This is a weird communist top down, nothing else is valuable, type of statement

817

While the 3 ilvl difference kind of miffed me at first, thinking it over its not so bad, though id still prefer it just being equal and call it a day. If you’re just playing mythic+ semi-casual you probably won’t notice the ilvls, and if you’re going to push super high keys you were probably going to want to raid for more chances at top tier gear anyways. So honestly doesn’t seem like much has changed, whather your preference is raiding or mythic+ youre probably going to want to do the other form of content for faster loot.

818

So you’re saying, it’s easier to find and manage 19 other people, then 1, 2, or 4? That alone is mindboggling for someone as into the numbers as you were pretending.

As someone that played as a Main Tank last expac, I can easily tell you I HATED watching my guild, people came, people left, we started getting good members and they’d leave or never log in again after a month. It was…it was an absolute nightmare. Now of course, some will have it better than others, but from my own friend group of about four different guilds on the server of Thrall, it was a nightmare to maintain good raiders and you were mostly left with a mediocre team.

And this coming from someone that enjoys PVP first and foremost.

As for that, most people enjoy raiding. That is a fact. One that I disliked for a looooong time. From about BC to Legion to be exact, then I finally grew out of it and started pursuing PVE further.

When most people come back to the game, they want to raid. That is why raiding always be the highest and most rewarding thing at the start of every expansion. If the game keeps it’s steam, they keep on course, if not then they do decisions like “Corruptions” and what not to further reward other content. It makes the most sense by far.

Well that’s great, but you’re forgetting about the diversity you just spoke of. We’re not a hivemind. I disagree with your statement. One of us will be unhappy in the end. Now you understand a game dev’s dilemma. You see this as a good thing, I see it as a bad thing. They need to find the thing that makes the most sense to their playerbase, which typically is raiding first and foremost at the start of an expansion by the numbers.

819

Time management doesn’t mean player difficulty. It’s an organizational problem, and this is an MMO - and it should be accounted for. The actual mechanical game difficulty of other content - I’m of the opinion of, that it rivals in difficulty for M Raid mechanics. It’s been proven with math that people (from an application of skill, and time invested) can achieve boss kills faster than other M+ or PvP milestones. Not sure why this has to be the constant re-framing of this conversation. There’s solutions to this, that can keep raid “special” for you

This is a great example then… Play what you enjoy about the game, take it as Far as you can, because there are other insanely difficult moments in the game outside of this. Get geared for it adequately (for that content, w/o penalizing Raid), all parties win… Without psychological manipulation that forces players like yourself into moments that just plain suck (and aren’t difficult moments)

You keep making these blanket statements, then accuse me of the same. Please backup your claims. The data that Blizzard collects is not public. The community has made some really fantastic data collection initiatives that prove the corners of this conversation…

Never said we were. That’s why I’ve said multiple times it’s important not to punish raiders…

Unavoidable to a point, but this is on a spectrum or scale. You should strive to make the player base have a more enjoyable game across as far reaching a platform as you can… (good for financials as well, as players like yourself would quit less…)

820

By a few guilds, sure. The difference is, over time those numbers are skewed and flipped. The M+'s start becoming far more frequent and the other guilds don’t push the Mythic Raid in the crazy time those select top 100 guilds have, which leaves a huge gap. The first to finish something, doesn’t necessarily impact what occurs, overall. For example infinitely more people finish a +15 then ever see CE: Mythic Raid Achievement. Despite the fact guilds like Method may’ve pushed that in a week.

Also, time management and player management is something that IS VERY IMPORTANT. LOL If you do NOT HAVE THE PLAYERS you aren’t doing the content ANYWAYS. It matters not how easy or hard something is. That is the basis of it. /facepalm Something that requires more will always be more challenging for the masses to pursue, why? Because at the highest level of Mythic Raids, everyone needs to be pulling their weight for the most part. I burn out because of raiding, honestly. You have to put so much effort into it, then a small mistake turns into a massive wipe, and you never were involved with the mistake.

When you have 19 people that HAVE to be doing mechanics while pumping out great DPS/heals, yes that is by far the hardest when you then understand how many people decide to quit, get poached by other more successful guilds, etc. You are mostly LOCKED in with these guilds you pursue content with, unlike every other portion of this game, which you are choosing never to highlight and ignore in every response for “difficulty.”.

Also, you’re presuming PVE’ers want to manage a ton of different gearsets for different things. PVP to PVE, hell yes there needs to be different gear. M+'s to Raiding? No way. People WANT something to do outside of the 2-3 days they raid. Running M+'s was a good way of trying to get small upgrades inbetween. You’d be killing PVE gearing, for example if you made it so M+ gear was only beneficial in M+, as I’ve seen you or someone speak of. I’d NEVER touch an M+ if it didn’t benefit me overall. So now, you’re making there be less content for the overall masses.

Look at the statistical data of achivements and such from 8.0, 7.0. Etc, those are when the most content is being done as the games have the most people. Raiding is by far the most done feature. That isn’t something I can link, so you’ll have to go look at the facts for yourself also.

And again, I wouldn’t even consider myself a “raider”. I PVP more then I raid, hell I do M+'s more then I raid. I only raid two nights a week, or do when I play typically. Yet I play everyday. You’re presuming that my opinion is that of a “Raider” first mentality. It’s not.

You do the least to stir the pot in the end. You make sure the experiuence is as enjoyable for as many people as possible and then it evens out as the masses quit, as most do after a while into the new expac, that is WoW’s lifecycle. Sure you can try and do things that will keep people in for longer but WoW as a whole has been out for many, many years. Many players, like myself, just get burned out on old systems, in a game they’ve played since Vanilla. Nothing wrong with that either.

821

I never said that either.

Why do you constantly twist my words?

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822

Maybe I misunderstood you then? If you’re trying to say, “A drop, should then upgrade your crafting recipe or give you a recipe to make what was just dropped with different secondary stats” then that is what I got from it and I stand firmly against it as very stupid.

823

but loot is boring and everything has fifty copies of itself. To let loot be loot you need garbage loot. And great loot. And serve garbage loot as temporary unlucky placeholders. Like it’s used to. Items with names you can recognize.

824

On live you can swap to other classes when checking loot in the adventure log, that’s one of the drop downs. Is that not working on Beta?

825

It’s a decent metric for mechanical difficulty. And, I never argued that a +15 is equivalent to CE lol… I even said above that’s a hand out, which feels bad

And should be rewarded, but it’s currently rewarded in a spectrum that is insanely punishing to players disinterested in raid drama organization. I’ve stated many times, how it’s currently gear dominant, and how it can stay that way without unnecessarily penalizing other very difficult content that is currently not rewarded at all (20+ keys, or challenger and above PvP - please re-read the math on boss drop rates, and cross reference with in-week itemization of PvP and M+)

I’m sure a lot of people do. So maybe Blizz should consider investing in other ways to keep the game fresh, difficult, and rewarding…

Not necessarily, I’m presuming you can add value to M+ and PvP without penalizing Raid itemization, and still allow for fluidity of raid gear flowing into other content, without overwhelming the entire progression structure there (As, happens, when M Raid achieves gear dominance early on and starts to casual in other areas and destroy w/o exhibiting greater skill as those invested in that content).

Being forced to do something to enjoy your content will indeed bias the data here. If you have better data, from internal Blizz collection, that may help. Until then - I’m sticking with some data that’s been provided above

826

No it doesn’t. The value of Bonus rolls was TARGETING your loot, and the bad luck protection built into them. The chest offers neither, it’s just another spin at the wheel of loot, and while it’s not supposed to duplicate itself (we’ll see if that’s actually accomplished) it can and will duplicate items you’re wearing and never drop that one boss item you could target before with seals.

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827

You can change classes on the DJ on beta, it just took me a while manually checking every bosses loot in both the raid and every dungeon and compiling them in a spreadsheet matrix for the various stat combos. I picked mail because that’s what I’ve been playing in beta (shaman).

I could do it for the other armor types, but I expect (assumption) it would be similar.

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828

You’re also choosing to ignore the fact, the best players in the world are focusing on the Raid, rather then M+'s. So of course the raid will get finished first, with M+'s achivement and current records being broken shortly therefore after when those same players are no longer on the raid day after day. HMMMMM…

20+ Keys were never meant to be gear rewarding. They do NOT want people to feel forced to do super high keys. That was NEVER their intent. That is what making gear drop from 20+ keys would start to become. That is why +10 was all you needed for a chest key in 8.0. The difference between raiding is, most people only raid twice or three times a week. M+'s are SPAMMABLE. Meaning players would feel forced into doing them constantly to get as high end loot as possible. That and high end PVP is moreso about the achivement and trial of it. It has always been that way, getting mounts, titles, etc. They never made these things to be “equal” to Mythic Raiding level loot.

I’d burnout of boredom if they tried to force M+'s to be the new “thing”. I’ve wanted them to invest in PVP for…well ever, but it sadly never gets the attention it deserves. Raiding captures the most interest though, I’ve finally learned to accept it and play WoW for what it is.

Making M+ Gear it’s own entity, would do that though. It’d kill it for everyone that plays PVE for PVE’s sake and has no argument in Raid VS M+, or like me, do M+'s TO better myself for the Raid’s sake. You’re bringing up hypotheticals now, that go against what you’ve said earlier, about them bringing M+ Exclusive Gear/Gear Sets, etc.

So you’re choosing ignorance over statistical data, when the data you’ve “collected” here, is only a tiny likely not even 1% of the actual playerbase’s wants and needs. Since the forum is…not all that populated in comparison to the number of subs WoW has currently, let alone the number of subs when Shadowlands actually hits. And you’re saying what -I- was looking at was skewed. /lolwat???

829

I’m not trying to get you emotionally charged man. We can disagree and continue to respect and converse with level heads and reason.

A lot of what you keep bringing up (like m+ spammable, and how m+ gear floods raid outcomes, etc) is stuff I’ve talked about to death previously, and provided potential options for consideration.

There are solutions here, that are just not considered. That may really improve the game across the board.

830

Can we add a 4th option. For people who like to play outside of those only options, Like im a hella good Quester man!! You know like treasure finding and exploration- type things but challenging, making it a way to gear up. I Like to hit mobs hard too :slight_smile: