Questioning if the Titans/First Ones are Actually Protagonists

I wanted to see if there was anything ICC could give us in the way of hints to the Jailer’s scheme, as it’s been retconned that it was the Jailer who was the puppet Master all along.
And some Lady Deathwhisper quotes really stood out to me but this one most.
This line here: “it is a weakness; a crippling flaw… a joke played by the creators upon their own creations.”

Now, this is familiar, because in Dawn of the Aspects, Deathwing has some interesting lines about the Titans. Deathwing also implies that Azeroth was an experiment to the Titans. A Plaything. When they were done, they turned their backs on all of them, indifferent to the broken world they left behind.

What exactly Lady Deathwhisper is referring to been referring to has been a mystery. But now with more context of the Jailer’s plan I’m wondering if it’s one of two things. It could be about free will or hope or rather, the loss of it.

She also says "those who serve utterly, unquestioningly will be rewarded. " but that requires giving up free will and in order to give up free will first you must give up hope.

That in itself paints the Jailer as potentially the worst villain in WoW history. It could also explain how Sylvanas has become, over time, broken down to the point where she questions if free will is real and she could have easily fallen into this idea that through service to the Jailer that she would be elevated, and through that elevation she could find a means to overcome this mental prison.

There’s also the idea that hope is the weakness that the creators played on their own creation. Like Pandora’s box, it was the one evil that stayed in the box. But who are “The Creators’? was it the Titans who we know from Chronicle who claim to have made us as perfect Titanforge creations before we were corrupted by the Curse of Flesh.

Or were we organic beings made from the Old Gods, and were Cursed with Stone? in the alternate history found on N’Zoth cultists.

One of the things that is still on the table, until proven otherwise is the idea that whoever created life in the WoW universe did so to create and feed off anima. Yogg-Saron’s puzzle box says “All things have souls, all souls can devoured.” anima is at it’s very core concept, fuel. It’s the fuel that powers the very cosmos. Old Gods admit to tasting peoples anima as a way to judge their character maybe it’s no different with the Titans. It’s becoming more and more evident that the Shadowlands was Ordered by the Titans. The Purpose, the unquestioned system that the Shadowlands uses to function, is hiding dark secrets.

This can be setting up an existential question that will run it’s course through the plot of Shadowlands and that plot is, is the illusion of free will simply a joke or a weakness played on us by our creators? Perhaps the idea that we have any power to resist this oppressive system is just a grand illusion.

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I am admittedly a fan of the idea that the titans are amoral. After all, they are super powerful god like beings who float around the cosmos. Why should they see us mere mortals as anything more than ants?

That said, I have always taken the ‘defect’ that Lady Deathwhisper refers to, to mean the Curse of the Flesh. Said curse made the denizens of Azeroth mortal, squishy, and easy to kill. So, it would only make sense for someone like Lady Deathwhisper to advocate for undeath as a potential remedy for these ‘defects.’ However, the ‘mainstream narrative’ of the Warcraft universe up until the point tells us that the Curse of Flesh was not part of the Titans design, and so Lady Deathwhisper is mistaken in her assertion that the Titans played ‘a cruel joke’ on their creations. (Assuming that the Titans are who she was referring to.

Followers of the Old Gods are known to be insane, so I would not consider them to be a reliable source of information. Deathwing’s assertions are a bit more interesting, but I would still take them with a grain of salt.

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The fact they they are widely discredited gives me even more reason to give them some form of validation. I’m a historian, and one of the things that interests me about real history is how it’s always changing when you uncover new evidence. That’s what this is. History as we know it is written by the Titans. Ion confirmed this. Usually in history it’s the side that wins that gets their history taken as fact.

Listening to the Old Gods, sure there’s danger in it, many have lost their minds over it, but dipping into the Void every now and again to see their PoV has been enlightening.

I really liked the philosophy lesson Blizzard gave us in the form of Mechagon. The Mechagnomes believe so hard in the Titan truth that they would risk losing themselves to transhumanism just to reclaim their place among the Titans as Titan creations. When’s it’s just a brain connected to some wires in a lab is it still a person?

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That is all well and good, and I see where you are coming from. But there still isn’t actually any substantial evidence to back these writings up. Could they be more than the mad scribblings of cultists? I won’t throw that possibility out the window entirely. But until there is some actual substance to back them up, I am inclined to take these claims with a grain of salt.

At the very least though, it is an interesting possibility to think about.

Of course they could.

that’s the risk of posting and being wrong.

I would say yes. If it is intelligent enough to communicate and understand what it’s saying it is fully Sapient and thus a Person!

King Mechagon was insane and smug about his genius before he Mechanized himself! Gnomes being insane is pretty much normal.

Being augmented results in a power rush that fills the brains with pleasure at being changed. Kael’thas was made arrogant as a result of the power rush of Fel yet retained such arrogance after death. Gnomes cured of the Mechanization half of the time are upset at losing their transformation!

It’s pretty obvious that being transformed in of itself never changes the person’s personality in WoW unless they are rendered Catatonic(in which case they keep saying things like “found it”).

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The full Mechagon conversion eliminated the brain as well.

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where it breaks all ethical rules is when Mechagon forced the gnomes to undergo operations without their consent. They just glossed over that war crime. I feel like Mechagon should have been bigger than it was with more emphasis on just how terrible of a person King Mechagon was.

But people were just like “yay! robot legs!” I mean, robot legs are great just not at the cost of your humanity.

The Mechoriginator(an only once used instantaneous method of Mechanization) goes beyond even that and eliminates Sapience which is what is the most important part of what makes a Person a Person.

King Mechagon may have turned everything including his Brain into Machine yet he did not use the Mechoriginator which would have destroyed his Mind. The Mechoriginator is designed to remove everything the Curse of Flesh has including the mind showing how Mimiron’s creations weren’t designed to be more than machines.

Incidentally Mimiron created the Mechagnomes while under the influence of Yogg-Saron while most Titanforged normally act Sapient and like any other Race in WoW. Makes it almost seem like Yogg-Saron is the one wanting to destroy free will not the Titans!

The Curse of Flesh giving the Gnomes free will is pointless since Yogg-Saron had Mimiron design most of them to not have Free Will.

Yogg-Saron’s Gift of Flesh to the Gnomes is bait with which to convince Mortals to embrace his control and lose their freedom! Mindflayer Kaahrj was so brainwashed by Yogg-Saron that once the Old God died he was catatonic before N’Zoth restored his sanity.

Yogg-Saron does not want his subjects free and the Titan Keepers under his thrall create mindless and/or obedient machines to ensure loyalty.

And that’s a good thing?! actually I would wager that’s exactly the reason the Attendants seem to lack all ability to think for themselves outside of the purpose. Do you think the purpose is just a computer program and the Attendants are just running on autopilot?

The Attendants don’t seem to have a unique thought among them.

He was still able to corrupt and confuse Mimiron.

It most certainly not a good thing and is proof of how vile and dangerous Yogg-Saron is!

He created the Emerald Nightmare with Chronicle confirming that he not N’Zoth was Xavius’s Boss when Xavius first ruled the Nightmare until N’Zoth hijacked the thing as soon as Yogg-Saron was killed.

Yogg-Saron caused much destruction with no claim of goodness!

As for why he commits atrocities so shamelessly unlike N’Zoth who claims to be a savior: Yogg-Saron is the self-proclaimed Old God of Death!

Remember how the Nathrezim Journal Enemy Infiltration - Preface states that the Void Lords readily accepted the Nathrezim’s Death Magics? Do you really think the Void Lords could heavily infuse that Magic into an Old God without consequences?

Denathrius himself couldn’t consume the Anima from Revendreth’s Sinners without being corrupted so how would an Old God infused with the Anima & Stygia from the Maw’s Sinners(as the Color of Yogg-Saron’s Death Ray and Shield resembling the Green Death Magics seen in the Maw indicates) be any different?

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“I have seen worlds bathed in the Makers’ flames, their denizens fading without so much as a whimper. Entire planetary systems born and razed in the time that it takes your mortal hearts to beat once. Yet all throughout, my own heart devoid of emotion… of empathy. I. Have. Felt. Nothing. A million-million lives wasted. Had they all held within them your tenacity? Had they all loved life as you do?”

The Titans want to impose Order, and have wiped entire worlds from existence if they don’t comply with that order.

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Um…the Old Gods and their followers aren’t just “historically” insane. They’re currently and consistently insane and malicious, and continue to reassert that malign insanity every time they reappear.

This isn’t some case of us not having the Old Gods’ side of the story. They’ve been repeatedly in our faces and heads throughout WoW, and the whole time even when they insist that the titans usurped them, they follow that up with confirmation that what got usurped was indeed every bit as heinous and vile as the titans make it out to be. (Incidentally, people are far too eager to grasp onto “written by the titans” as some excuse to just assume everything from Chronicle is just nonsense propaganda from a malevolently biased source.)

The Old Gods don’t claim to really be the good guys with the titans being evil. They just insist that the arbitrary suffering and unending horror of their own dominion is the way things are supposed to be.

Dipping into the Void has utilitarian value, but thus far the only thing we’ve learned about its inhabitants and Old God agents themselves is the reassertion that when the Void acts with its own agency, it’s invariably malicious, insane and nightmarishly cruel. Which the Void’s denizens continue to make apparent every time we encounter them.

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That makes sense. What if Sylvanas was an agent of N’Zoth against Yogg-saron (who is still alive but under constant Titan watcher surveillance as seen in the Legion pre launch event.) Past suggestion in Stormrage suggest that Yogg-saron corrupted Teldrassil, and Tyrande becoming Night Warrior was part of his plan. N’Zoth on the other hand, whispers about Sylvanas defeating Bolvar, and how that subverted what the Jailer expected Sylvanas to do. It’s wierd to think the 4th War was just Old God infighting but that may be close to the truth.

What if this Tyrande vs Sylvanas fight was Yogg-Saron and N’Zoth fighting for dominance over Azeroth. Xal’atath seems to have chosen N’Zoth’s side.

No they aren’t.

YOU are. everyone else is either opposition or supporting cast.

More likely N’Zoth’s chosen champion is the Players with Sylvanas and Tyrande both being chosen by Yogg-Saron.

Sylvanas constantly tells us to abandon Hope which is exactly what Yogg-Saron constantly tells us.

Yogg-Saron is likely aligned with the Jailer(how could he not considering he was corrupted into a God of Death by the Maw’s own Green Death Magics?) who alongside his Dreadlord allies sees the Void Lords as pawns and distractions for his rivals while N’Zoth is aligned with the Void Lords themselves!

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I think Sylvanas is more aligned with Xal’atath who is actually against both her brothers to be honest, but she seems to favor N’Zoth because he’s the weakest and she thinks she can beat him in the end. But I think N’Zoth at the very least thinks Sylvanas is on his side, his whisper “Queen challenges King. His crown will open the way” is N’Zoth foreshadowing the fight between Sylvanas and Bolvar. In We Ride forth the Presence in Bolvar’s head which may be the Jailer (or more likely it’s Yogg) thinks Sylvanas will come to claim the crown and wear it for herself. so The Presence was wrong about Sylvanas, while N’Zoth was right.

Something is going on with the Old Gods, for sure, but clearly N’Zoth wanted Sylvanas to break the sky and open a path to the Shadowlands. Why would he want that? Maybe their master was locked in the Maw a long time ago when they Attacked Bastion? I’m wondering if the “Flesh is his gift, he is your true creator” wasn’t about Yogg. What if they were talking about Death? I don’t know where I’m going with this, it’s just there is breadcrumbs here to follow but they don’t go anywhere.

She mostly favored Y’shaarj. Most of what she says in regards to N’zoth involved insulting/belittling him. Really the only good thing she says about him is that he’ll ultimately claim victory.

I will say that you’re on the right track in terms of speculation. To me it’s quite apparent that Void and Death are closer allies than people think.

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The titans as far as we know are not trying to kill us. As far as I’m concerned anyone not directly(and generally indirectly) trying to kill or harm in some way can be considered “protagonist”.

“gnomanity?”

Ha. I crack myself up.

Also:

Algalon basically comes out and says he’s been annihilating entire planets for funsies and as part of the Titan plan. But because we punched him a lot he was willing to let us live.

They are not protagonists in my opinion. This all plays into the whole “these groups are amoral” concept Blizzard’s been throwing around. And this is from Wrath, so it’s not like it’s a retcon to say, “Hey, the Titans do what they want.” Yeah we’re not going to view the Voidlords in the same way as we view the Titans (most likely) but … let’s not count on them being our besties.