Queen Calia Menethil... This made me laugh (Spoilers)

This game does nuance well, the problem is the HORDE COMMUNITY that removes any nuance from the game.

An example: the Troll Wars. It is a NUANCED story. The High Elves are not good, as their reckless use of magic sundered the world. They are also not evil, or were they supposed to die freezing in the mountains? It is a nuanced conflict, born of a necessity, of survival, of a broken people that desperately needs a new home.

But the HORDE COMMUNITY just strips away all nuance and paints the High Elves as evil cOlOnIzErS (AS terrible of a buzzword as the G-word).

Anything that is nuanced, the Horde community strips away all nuance to paint their nAtIvE-coded races as innocent and poor victims.

And so we are just supposed to ignore that the High Elves were literally freezing and dying in the mountains. :rofl:

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The problem with nuance in Warcraft is that the basis from which this game sprang was a story that involved two separate species repeatedly wiping each other off of the local map in order to progress the story.

Warcraft III tried to add new depth to this story and it’s commendable that it did so, but at the same time, you have scenarios like the mission where Thrall and Carine had to bulldoze through several alliance fortifications—each of which contained a town hall and supporting community—created by Jaina Proudmoore in order to access Stonetalon Mountain where they could meet with Medivh. Or the mission where Tyrande leads the Night Elves to slaughter a Human Paladin leading a coalition of Thrall’s Horde and Jaina’s Alliance hunting the Burning Legion and it’s Scourge servants.

Every battle was an existential one in the RTS, and that philosophy survived into Vanilla World of Warcraft. That and it’s easier write quests that tell the player to just kill everyone and do warcrimes, than it is to write a quest where anyone is innocent or shouldn’t be considered a target.

For this reason, I’m agreeing with Cemeron only because if killing one green man in a group of nine orange and one green is a green genocide, then all of Warcraft, both Alliance and Horde are pretty much built on it as a foundation. We slaughter lesser races to exterminate them and remove them from our spaces and never bat an eye. The creatures that don’t use tools to fight back? We’re always reducing their numbers to protect the almighty ecosystem that we didn’t even know about until we arrived and asked the worried guy whose outfit is covered in leaves.

Everything in this game and story is about fighting and killing. Lets stop pretending that there is some higher moral philosophy here. Very few people are still watering their crops in the Valley of the Four Winds. Most of us are wherever there is something to blow up with fireballs, stab with a knife, or overwhelm with afflictions.

You’re not pure, your faction is not pure, you’re all filthy blood-soaked butchers and you love it.

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Well if I didn’t enjoy it, I would have stopped playing years ago :dracthyr_nod:

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I wish I can give you an award! Its exactly right we even have quests in Vanilla to wipe out entire Quilboar villages and in Dwarf startzone kill baby trolls. There are no clean hands in Warcraft, but we often try to play one is pure good or bad, but all hands are stained by their actions. The issue of the Alliance vs Horde is that on some level we all agree that the races within each faction are equal to their opposing counterparts ignoring the Wolvar, Gnolls, Kobolds and insert cannon fodder race and we don’t wince twice.

In Vanilla with Naxxramas we learn of Thaddius who was an abomination stitched together with the corpses of women and children. This alone was seen as evil beyond measure as slaughtering women and children is a universal wrong and raising them as abominations even more so… Since then WoW has played this little extra layer that those special races again humans, elves, dwarves, orcs and trolls etc to a lesser extent are entitled to life and liberty. The lesser races? Meh. Though personally I think they should also be regarded with value and the same rights we would provide a human or an orc.

I think we need to stepback and also imagine ourselves as living humans in WoW and imagine how the people of Hillsbrad, Southshore, Pyrewood, Ambermill and beyond would feel seeing their family members who claim to be different than the Scourge plaguing them and worse… Sludge Fields. Would we not decry this as genocide and seek justice?

Forsaken can turn around and justify that the living survivors rejected them, but should rejection be enough to warrant extermination and concentration camps? I think the lines of what’s right and wrong are flexible in WoW but not ignored. If Theramore and Teldrassil was genocide is not the actions done to the living population of Lordaeron an extension of such thinking? What difference is there between the Lich King and Sylvanas? As she said to Garrosh, “I serve the Horde…” Even Garrosh had a choice word to use when she responded like that. Even Garrosh has limits of villainy.

Sylvanas is the queen of WoW

Queen of the Maw perhaps. :sweat_smile:

I always took the interaction between Garrosh and Sylvanas in Cata, just before the invasion of gilneas, as an indirect threat by Sylvanas. Basically telling him Be thankful it’s not your people I’m raising. He obviously picked up on the threat and had a choice word to describe her.

But that’s me. Others may see it differently

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The actions of the Forsaken in Vanilla World of Warcraft to their gains in Cataclysm cannot be justified, but they can be explained.

The Forsaken concept of their “rejection” isn’t being told you can’t sit at the living kid’s table. It was being treated as no less than beasts and monsters for having the gall to die at the hands of Arthas’ forces, and be forced to commit atrocities in his name through magic. The original Forsaken story posits that none save Thrall and Cairne, are willing to believe they’re not just some sort of Scourge trick at trying to get inside the walls with smiles and speech so they can continue the Lich King’s crusade against all of Azeroth.

You also share your homeland with your living counterparts who are universally hostile and hang you from the trees or torture for sport. A Forsaken goodbye is “Beware the Living” for good reason. You’re not an individual deserving of liberty or (un)life, you’re a threat.

It certainly didn’t help that Sylvanas made the big-brain decision to keep a Dreadlord on as an advisor, given that she believed she had cornered him. She obviously didn’t know about Dreadlords effectively being immortal and unkillable, and Varimathras took advantage of this to wage war on Lordaeron’s living at all costs, even going so far as to have Forsaken defectors hunted and slain when the Alliance would take them prisoner instead of outright killing them. In the end, the Forsaken perpetrated the Scourge crimes upon their living neighbors, which is indefensible.

But when you draw back and look at the larger picture, the Scarlet Crusade, which was and remains the Forsaken’s primary antagonist, was lead by another Dreadlord. They were playing both sides against each other like a game, and this ploy only ended with the sudden intervention from the Argent Dawn when they uncovered Balnazzar in Stratholme and put him down. Sadly by that point, the Scarlets were self-perpetuating, and now have expanded their crusade to include Alliance Races like the Worgen as also being an enemy. But they’re literally the result of a Dreadlord plot to commandeer the remnants of the Paladin Orders of Lordaeron, so we shouldn’t expect anything less than them being an eternal thorn in the side of the Forsaken, Worgen, and heck, even the Elves of Quel’thalas.

When it comes to the living humans of Southshore, basically the Forsaken shrugged and assumed that because initial relations were cold at best, to outright hostile, there was no point in changing their standard operating procedure. Just treat them like Scarlets because they’re going to try to kill you all the same. Ultimately, Occam’s’ Razor serves us well here.

So, the whole reason the Forsaken are as vile as they are is that they were lead by a woman who thought she was smarter than everyone else in the room. Much as I adore her Sylvanas was a terrible politician, but her people didn’t elect her as a politician, she was adored for being a ruthless general—and would later flop at that too—and gave them a goal they could focus on, rather than acknowledging their condition.

Basically instead of getting the stitches they needed for their giant gaping wound, they just continuously injected themselves with shots of adrenaline Sylvanas supplied them to stay conscious and moving forward. The Desolate Council is the right step forward, despite my reservations about some of it’s members. I imagine the future will see a lot more cooperation between the living and undead, and a lot less hostility. After all, the Argents proved it was more than possible.

Any Forsaken player or fan who tries to argue that the Forsaken are innocent, is just trolling you. However, this doesn’t make the Forsaken any more or less evil than anyone else in the game. Even the Sludge Fields was considered a step too far which had to be dealt with through pain of death. Too bad Blizzard forgot the warden was killed and just brought him back with no explanation in a throwaway BFA Wartable mission. Hopefully he died painfully again if that quest is to be considered cannon and not a complete mistake.

I don’t condone what the Forsaken did before Shadowlands, but I won’t apologize for it either because none of us were involved in the quest and story design process.

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No, you don’t.
You see the Alliance as blameless. You excuse and ignore their crimes as it suits you.
You sincerely said the Alliance hadn’t stood aside as the blood elves lost 90% of their population (and that’s the factual objective canonically stated given percentage).

Not only did they stand aside, they tried to order the remainder into no win war scenarios to get them killed, too.

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My brother.
:sunglasses:

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Don’t blame you one bit. Nor do I see an issue with this.

tank ‘em, spank ‘em than camp ‘em :dracthyr_nod:

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For the Mother F*** Horde brother, well said!!!

Pardon my language but man that ending had my Horde blood popping it had to be said or I explode! lol :rofl:

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This needs to be pinned to the top of Story Forum.

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You make the best case for the Forsaken, and one that I agree with. I played Vanilla as Forsaken priest. I couldn’t stomach what the Forsaken were turning into when Varimathras took over. i initially thought in Cataclysm the Forsaken would be on a short leash and cut their worse inclinations. They didn’t. Playing both Worgen starting experience and the Cata questlines on Forsaken side. You realize there really isn’t a ounce of justification beyond the initial point that the Forsaken simply trusted in Sylvanas and believed her propaganda on the living.

Even in Vanilla by the Dalaran dome several Forsaken defectors moved there to show they were still “human” and wanted to show what they discovered in Undercity and that their conscience could not bear what the Forsaken were turning into. They were swiftly killed and no mention. Then came WotLK and the world saw what the Forsaken were doing in the Undercity where once whispers and rumors abound the facts laid bear at the Warchief’s feet and he had to bring the Kokron to hold down the fort. The Forsaken should have immediately sought to turn around their image and show the living within the Horde and their living brethren in the Alliance that they are not the Scourge 2.0. Boy did that fail.

Then we see questing where they continued to devolve into the most vile stereotypes, but this time no excuses of dread lords and outside factors. The Scarlet Crusade was defeated and the living posed no threat. That was the time for them to make inroads and build their reputation as not monsters…

Legion they took the evil route again… and well while not the main point of the story doesn’t help the cause by BFA and Teldrassil and Battle for Lordaeron and Darkshore… The Forsaken were thoroughly depicted as the bad guys. Even to the point where other Horde races didn’t trust them. Even the Blood Elves were at wit’s end.

Now Post Fourth War the living once again rebuild in Lordaeron. Not just in Southshore, but all over Lordaeron under the Stromgarde flag, Argent Crusade and Gilneas. The Forsaken have also been decimated by these repeated wars to the point where their populations could not take on the full force of the resurgent Crusade without the hero’s help.

The Forsaken then under the Desolate Council and Calia Menethil’s guidance made huge concessions and favors for Gilneas. They allow the living to rebuild in Southern Lordaeron and the former Plaguelands are healing at last. If Midnight comes, I hope we see a new Lordaeron City, a strong Desolate Council and the neutral state between Quel’thelas and Lordaeron ruled by the Council. New Lordaeron for all its people living and undead.

If the Gathering showed us is that the living are capable of forgiving the undead and the undead can if they try and I mean really try. They can show the world they aren’t monsters. The help to Gilneas was perhaps the biggest favor they could of done, but it wont be enough if they don’t double down on repairing their image post Sylvanas.

That was Garithos and also the Alliance did send help the dwarves in Warcraft 3 and the gnomes sent divisions to help Kael’thas and Garithos then went home because Garithos was too racist. The Alliance of Lordaeron by the time the invasion of Quel’thelas occurred were thoroughly defeated and in no way able to send entire armies to retake both Lordaeron, Dalaran and follow the Scourge into Quel’thelas. What are you talking about? The Alliance did what they could, but weren’t able to stop the apocalypse from happening. Be serious and stop blaming what the Scourge did on the Alliance.

The Alliance has plenty of blood from the interment camps of the orcs to Admiral Proudmore’s actions. The racism of Garithos was not a direct and condoned action of the surviving states of the Alliance, but of the last living remnant force of Lordaeron before the Scarlet Crusade or Argent Dawn existed. We are talking about Warcraft 3 not Vanilla or even present day. The Alliance has plenty of blood from what the dwarves do to the ice trolls to the way they conducted their war on Pandaria and in the Fourth War. Both sides aren’t equal in their crimes, but both sides have done plenty of evil things. Just one faction has done way worse.

The Alliance forces he commanded.
It was the rest of the Alliance that didn’t send aid.
It was the rest of the Alliance that didn’t give Kael’thas an out.

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Neither Hillsbrad nor Silverpine were any genocide.

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There’s a concentration camp where Hillsbrad once stood. How can you pretend otherwise when Drek’thar himself saw the Forsaken no different than the orcs on Draenor when they exterminated the Draenei or the fall of Stormwind where they filled the canals with the bodies of Stormwindians. How do you ignore the weight of all the evidence?

Using your own logic here fella. Blizzard doesn’t say its genocide so it isn’t. Easy stuff.

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I’m not sure the Desolate Council as we currently know it would even have been possible in Vanilla, though. I think it’s only become a solution thanks to Before the Storm’s rewriting of general Forsaken society. Because gradually, over the years, the Forsaken’s story has been turned from one of being united behind Sylvanas because they all shared the same goals to being duped and oppressed by Sylvanas for a cause that they didn’t care about.

I think a Forsaken council formed in the Vanilla era would have taken them in pretty much the same direction Sylvanas did, just with more potential for infighting. The Argents were originally the exception, the ones who showed that the Forsaken weren’t a monolith; the organization was a haven for those who didn’t fit in.

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