Thanks guys for all the feedback here as I've been tracking this thread for quite a while. With Battle for Azeroth we aren't ready to share information on what changes may be coming past what has been shared at BlizzCon.
PVP is something that has been actively discussed going forward into the new expansion, no idea on if any changes are going to be made but keep in mind we still have a whole testing cycle to go through so please keep the discussion up.
No idea if any changes will be made. HAHAHA.
Also whole Alpha/Beta cycle to go through.
Welcome to the content drought boys.
BfA is easily 10-12 months away.
generally Jugga pops up around now and brags about getting all of her gear from random bg's, inferring that everyone else just has bad luck except her
generally Jugga pops up around now and brags about getting all of her gear from random bg's, inferring that everyone else just has bad luck except her
Why come in here saying anything like this, are you looking to get this topic locked.
Please stick to the topic
Productive thread, keep it up!
Read what I could but wanted to voice a desire I hadn't seen mentioned - to make the prestige outfits attainable post season.
I understand the exclusivity, but to not allow some way of working towards these sets/variants is frustrating for alts or collectors, or those who were simply busy for the few weeks it was available. It's often a game of patience waiting the following expansion to collect, say, mythic raid armor variants for alts - but it's eventually achievable. This is often not the case for PvP prestige sets, and Legion accelerated this with shorter seasons.
If they become available, say, next expansion then this complaint is mostly moot. But it would be a nice carrot to work towards them for the less PvP inclined(high-rated) during the expansion. The Mage Tower skins are such a brilliant balance of 'exclusive reward' with a 'perceptible duration' that players of all skill levels can work towards. Wish it was similar for PvP, at least for previous seasons.
@JukeBox:
I don't even care about set or set bonuses. What they should do is make the SAME EXACT LEVEL GEAR drop for PVP (arena, BGs, RBGs, etc) that drops from instances. That way, people who want to PVE get their gear, those who only want to PVP gear THEIR gear.
Not sure why Blizz keeps INSISTING that we PVE to get our PVP gear.
Everything you say in the OP is true of the game in it's current state - and honestly where the game has been with PVP since the beginning. The PVP gear has never been comparable to the amount of effort required to obtain it. Looking all the way back to vanilla there was a massive grind involved and the gear was mediocre. The PVE content was significantly more rewarding. This has held true through every content release of the game.
It's gotten worse over time, and we can see the pinnacle of that now. For the stat template to work the most in your favor you MUST do Mythic+ and other PVE content. It's pretty lame. We even get gouged on the AP grind. Ever see the AP drops from a Mythic+15 or higher final boss? It's like a week of doing arena/battlegrounds in each drop. I'd imagine some Mythic+ players and active raid players are nearing 100 ranks of concordance with how much AP they get.
To expand on what I mean by PVP gear not reflecting the effort required to obtain it:
In the beginning we had PVP items available based on rank. Most of them were blue, up until you hit rank 11 - and that was just a MOUNT. Not even a piece of usable gear. These ranks required an excruciating grind of honorable kills. And this was when being "near" a kill wasn't enough to get credit for it. You had to be involved in the kill. Healing or dps didn't really matter, but you had to touch someone involved in the fight that lead to the death of an opposing faction member. The top rank players often had multiple people play the same account to keep it racking up kills around the clock. And even when you hit Rank 14, the full rank 14 set was still worse than even Tier 2, thanks to set bonuses and on use abilities.
In Burning Crusade - we got resilience. It made PVP gear more valuable, but it was easy to see certain PVE items and want them more. Their stats were way better, and often there were broken combinations of trinkets and set bonuses. And even then, you had to achieve 1850 for a weapon upgrade. Which was often worse than PVE counterparts.
This remained largely unchanged until Cataclysm. In Cataclysm we finally got three tiers of PVP items (four if you count the static crafted set). Honor grind gear, arena gear and elite gear. The elite gear was purely cosmetic aside from weapons. Weapons got a pretty respectable bump, and it was nice to feel the significance of these weapons in combat. You felt your character get a decent improvement just for breaking into the elite. It was rewarding. It made it feel worthwhile to get to that level. Using Season 10/11 as an example as a mage - we can see the same PVE gear upper hand readily though. Sure, the Season 10 elite gear was pretty good. But Moonwell Chalice (a significantly lower item level trinket from a faction reward) was almost REQUIRED to be a frost mage in arena. Enter the release of Season 11. Fire mages, warlocks, boomkins - basically any spellcasters, often including healers were instantly required the burden of getting Rath'Rak the Poisonous Mind and Cunning of the Cruel. Frost mages started becoming locked into having both Moonwell Chalice and Soulshifter Vortex (if they were lucky enough to find a raid group willing to donate a tanking trinket to a PVP mage)
I didn't play in WoD, and I quit early on in MoP - so I won't comment on these experiences.
This phenomena is finally dead in Legion. We no longer have to worry about such specific items. But instead, thanks to the purely RNG loot system, we are constantly forced into PVE just to obtain superior item levels to maintain a competitive edge. We traded one problem for another. It's unfortunate, but I'm certain that offering JUST a higher ilvl on PVP items would be sufficient. Even if the higher ilvl PVP gear had the same or similar stats to lower ilvl PVE gear. I feel this would be a great way to balance out the reward.
Again, LFG style entry level gear? Same as LFR.
Entry-level arena play (1600-1800?) Same as Normals
Higher-level arena play (1800-2000) Same as Heroic
High-level arena play (2000-2400?) Same as Mythic
Top-end arena play (2400+?) chance of up to legendary cap with titanforging.
Thanks to PVP sets not having set bonuses, and/or no procs and use abilities, PVE items would still be more desirable for PVE gameplay. I do realize this was quite the wall of text, and a lot of this has been hit in this thread before. Blue posters are reading this thread. The more of us voicing a similar opinion the better. It gives them motivation and inspiration to make changes.
12/10/2017 11:02 AMPosted by
Venruki
Am I alone in feeling this way?
Are you freaking kidding me Venruki?
YOUR the one who advocated the template system. You, CDew and so many other "Streamers." What were you words a few years back... it will legitimize WoWArena for the #ESports scene.
All you did was push that Folinka trash so you could make more money doing what you enjoyed... At the R1 Streamer Level, it was the perfect move. You convince your viewers to push up on the forums, making posts and circle jerking the idea until it was done... Screw the regular player right? Screw the fact that we're playing a MMO RPG.... An RPG.
You're such a freaking hypocrite...You got what you wanted... more prize pools, more tournaments and everyone besides the .3% that it applied to... said piss off, were done with PvP. And you make this post to complain about the PvP participation... and how to fix it...
You had just as much to do with this trash as Folinka did. Shame on you.
01/15/2018 01:22 PMPosted by
Night
12/10/2017 11:02 AMPosted by
Venruki
Am I alone in feeling this way?
Are you freaking kidding me Venruki?
YOUR the one who advocated the template system. You, CDew and so many other "Streamers." What were you words a few years back... it will legitimize WoWArena for the #ESports scene.
All you did was push that Folinka trash so you could make more money doing what you enjoyed... At the R1 Streamer Level, it was the perfect move. You convince your viewers to push up on the forums, making posts and circle jerking the idea until it was done... Screw the regular player right? Screw the fact that we're playing a MMO RPG.... An RPG.
You're such a freaking hypocrite...
You got what you wanted... more prize pools, more tournaments and everyone besides the .3% that it applied to... said piss off, were done with PvP. And you make this post to complain about the PvP participation... and how to fix it...
You had just as much to do with this trash as Folinka did. Shame on you.
Aside from the toxicity, this guy has a valid point. Streamers were the ones advocating for the templates and equalization.
01/15/2018 01:28 PMPosted by
Xjd
01/15/2018 01:22 PMPosted by
Night
...
Are you freaking kidding me Venruki?
YOUR the one who advocated the template system. You, CDew and so many other "Streamers." What were you words a few years back... it will legitimize WoWArena for the #ESports scene.
All you did was push that Folinka trash so you could make more money doing what you enjoyed... At the R1 Streamer Level, it was the perfect move. You convince your viewers to push up on the forums, making posts and circle jerking the idea until it was done... Screw the regular player right? Screw the fact that we're playing a MMO RPG.... An RPG.
You're such a freaking hypocrite...
You got what you wanted... more prize pools, more tournaments and everyone besides the .3% that it applied to... said piss off, were done with PvP. And you make this post to complain about the PvP participation... and how to fix it...
You had just as much to do with this trash as Folinka did. Shame on you.
Aside from the toxicity, this guy has a valid point. Streamers were the ones advocating for the templates and equalization.
Templates and equalization aren't the problem.
The problem is I can walk into a Mythic +15 and get a 940-955 ilvl piece of gear multiple times per week. I can walk into Mythic Antorus and grab 960-985 gear with bonus rolls from seal of broken fate.
I can't pvp at any level and obtain any gear above 955. I also can't get 940 ilvl gear any more frequently than once per week and POSSIBLY with a seal of broken fate.
That's a problem. It's awesome, imho that when you walk into a pvp zone:
You get a cookie cutter stat template with all the important boxes checked for your spec in pvp.
On use abilities, procs and set bonuses are disabled.
You scale based on item level.
That's all FANTASTIC. The stat template system is perfect.
Not being able to get appropriate ilvl gear from anything EXCEPT PVE is trash.
12/10/2017 11:02 AMPosted by
Venruki
Hello friends, I am writing this post due to recent concerns regarding PvP gear.
Apologize in advance for the massive use of the terms "PvP gear" and "PvE gear".
The only advantage PvP gear has in PvP or any other aspect of the game is its item level. PvE set bonuses and trinkets are still far superior in both high end raiding and high end mythic dungeons. This makes sense, high end raiding and dungeons should have beneficial gear for their type of game play.
The issue I'm having is now PvE gear is both easier to obtain and higher item level then its PvP counterpart. Gearing has essentially become irrelevant in PvP and has really taken a back seat this expansion. As a result, its feel like participation is down more than ever.
I'll give you a bit of an anecdote: I've been playing the game since vanilla and haven't really dipped my feet in much PvE content since early WOTLK. This expansion with +10/+15 chests rewards from Mythic+, I decided it was worth my time to complete this task weekly. I didn't feel like I was wasting my time and ended up enjoying the content as a way to progress my character. As a result I've come to really enjoy this type of content and now participate in Mythic raiding as well. If there wasn't that initial incentive to try the content and feel good about getting gear, I never would of done it in the first place.
With that in mind I'd like to now compare ways to gear in PvP content vs PvE content. Strictly in terms of item level here's a list from worst to best.
845 From normal dungeons
870 Random battlegrounds
885 Mythic +0
900 Crafting with blood of sargeras
900 Chest from winning a brawl once every two weeks.
910 Reliquished
915 LFR Antorus
925 LFR Argus
930 Normal Antorus
930 Rare drop from being 2400 rated in arena and winning a match.
940 Guaranteed from every mythic +15
940 Weekly PvP cap for being 2000 rated in arena.
940 Normal Argus
945 Heroic Antorus
950 Weekly PvP cap for being 2400 rated in arena.
955 Heroic Argus
960 Mythic Antorus & Weekly chest from m+ 15
970 Mythic Argus
These aren't the only ways of gearing but most.
For a new or casual player it's easy to see why gearing in PvE is not only much more rewarding but also guaranteed.
Do you know how many times I've heard my PvP buddies say "Lets go get our weekly +15 done" compared to my PvE friends saying "Lets go get 2400 rating so we can get our weekly cap done!". Even if you completely disregard the difficulty of achieving that rating in PvP, there's a monumental time difference in the two tasks, they're not even comparable. And yet, the weekly chest is still higher item level.
A reasonable item level to compete at higher end PvP and PvE is around 940.
Anyone aiming for this goal wouldn't waste their time PvP.
Reminder:
940 Guaranteed from every mythic +15 (GUARANTEED FOR COMPLETING, NOT EVEN IN TIME)
940 Weekly PvP cap for being 2000 rated in arena. (ONCE A WEEK)
940 Normal Argus (ONCE A WEEK)
945 Heroic Antorus (10 BOSSES A WEEK)
950 Weekly PvP cap for being 2400 rated in arena. (ONCE A WEEK)
955 Heroic Argus (ONCE A WEEK)
960 Mythic Antorus (10 BOSSES A WEEK) & Weekly chest from m+ 15 (ONCE A WEEK)
970 Mythic Argus (ONCE A WEEK)
Here's my WW monks armory: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/character/tichondrius/venfuki
I've played 219 games of arena this season at roughly 2500 MMR & 2400 CR. So far this season I've received 0 upgrades. The only pieces of PvP gear that remain for me are 2 pieces of elite warforged, something most players would never have access to. What's really disheartening is this problem is even worse for casual, low rated and mid tier PvPers.
People should feel incentivized to play all aspects of WoW. Currently PvP gear has taken a massive back seat and as a result participation and interest feels lower than ever.
Am I alone in feeling this way?
SHESUCKONTHEDICKONTHEPLANE SO I JUST CALL HER AIRHEAD WOO HE!
I've said this a lot but grinding PVE to be competitive in PVP is why MANY MANY MANY players quit the game. The template isn't working and PVP is still broken.
For WOW to survive they need to bring back PVP rewards from BGs and Arenas that match the PVE rewards.
Otherwise this game is toast.
01/15/2018 01:28 PMPosted by
Xjd
...
Aside from the toxicity, this guy has a valid point. Streamers were the ones advocating for the templates and equalization.
Templates and equalization aren't the problem.
The problem is I can walk into a Mythic +15 and get a 940-955 ilvl piece of gear multiple times per week. I can walk into Mythic Antorus and grab 960-985 gear with bonus rolls from seal of broken fate.
I can't pvp at any level and obtain any gear above 955. I also can't get 940 ilvl gear any more frequently than once per week and POSSIBLY with a seal of broken fate.
That's a problem. It's awesome, imho that when you walk into a pvp zone:
You get a cookie cutter stat template with all the important boxes checked for your spec in pvp.
On use abilities, procs and set bonuses are disabled.
You scale based on item level.
That's all FANTASTIC. The stat template system is perfect.
Not being able to get appropriate ilvl gear from anything EXCEPT PVE is trash.
I'm a fan of the equalization that templates bring but there are parts I dislike as well. I was more or less pointing out the guy has a point that templates were strongly advocated by the streamers/youtubers and now we are seeing those same people call templates stale. So there is a bit of irony lingering around.
Templates need customization. I remember having 3 different pvp sets on some alts. Random BG set, arena set, yolololol set. It was fun messing around with my character like that. I know some classes would have different sets based off the comp they were about to play against.
I blame pruning as the main source of evil in the stale Legion pvp. There is very little room for counterplay. Watching some of the top ranked arena matches and it's just cooldown swapping before going for the kill. That's boring to me personally. I remember watching a hunter running mirrored blades glyph and popped deterrence right before the druid casted cyclone that then let them get the kill.
Now we have auto bubble, auto remove dots when cc'd, ranged/non-global cd interrupts with no resource cost, etc. They pruned abilities and the skill ceiling.
01/15/2018 01:28 PMPosted by
Xjd
01/15/2018 01:22 PMPosted by
Night
...
Are you freaking kidding me Venruki?
YOUR the one who advocated the template system. You, CDew and so many other "Streamers." What were you words a few years back... it will legitimize WoWArena for the #ESports scene.
All you did was push that Folinka trash so you could make more money doing what you enjoyed... At the R1 Streamer Level, it was the perfect move. You convince your viewers to push up on the forums, making posts and circle jerking the idea until it was done... Screw the regular player right? Screw the fact that we're playing a MMO RPG.... An RPG.
You're such a freaking hypocrite...
You got what you wanted... more prize pools, more tournaments and everyone besides the .3% that it applied to... said piss off, were done with PvP. And you make this post to complain about the PvP participation... and how to fix it...
You had just as much to do with this trash as Folinka did. Shame on you.
Aside from the toxicity, this guy has a valid point. Streamers were the ones advocating for the templates and equalization.
That was not toxicity, that's a guy speaking from pure passion.
01/15/2018 01:28 PMPosted by
Xjd
...
Aside from the toxicity, this guy has a valid point. Streamers were the ones advocating for the templates and equalization.
Templates and equalization aren't the problem.
The problem is I can walk into a Mythic +15 and get a 940-955 ilvl piece of gear multiple times per week. I can walk into Mythic Antorus and grab 960-985 gear with bonus rolls from seal of broken fate.
I can't pvp at any level and obtain any gear above 955. I also can't get 940 ilvl gear any more frequently than once per week and POSSIBLY with a seal of broken fate.
That's a problem. It's awesome, imho that when you walk into a pvp zone:
You get a cookie cutter stat template with all the important boxes checked for your spec in pvp.
On use abilities, procs and set bonuses are disabled.
You scale based on item level.
That's all FANTASTIC. The stat template system is perfect.
Not being able to get appropriate ilvl gear from anything EXCEPT PVE is trash.
Yeah, I love losing 200k Mana as Arcane mid-expansion while my Haste gets buffed forcing me to have to Barrage at 3 stacks instead of 4 just so I can play the game and there being nothing I can do about it. I also love running out of mana just as my team sets up a kill because Holinka decided to fix Overpowered by nerfing the talent and then slapping a nerf on my Mastery stat which is used for increasing my resource regeneration making it so that if I cast Spellsteal more than once I will not be able to play for 20 secs.
I love a system that presents me a problem I can't solve, if this was the WoD system I could buy a Mastery gear set to give myself more mana and mana regen, but because this is Legion I am forced to run around like a headless chicken at the worst possible moment.
ugh don't remind me of the hot mess that is Arcane right now.
Agreed... As I raid heroic with people that couldn't even comprehend the complexities of an arena game at an average rating...Hope they fix up something good for us during the finial season of Legion!!
A lot of people thought the template would work for balancing. It seemed like a logical solution. I still don't think that's the actual problem for balance in legion, though. As for fun factor, the gearing process was better in the past. Get to 1750, get your weapon. Hey, I have more damage to push me to my next goal! Hit 2k, get my shoulders. Etc.
Whether past systems were flawed or not, they were more fun than current legion systems. Moving on, though.
The problem seems pretty clear to me. The "pruning" made it entirely too easy for people to "do damage". Classes are both homogenized and dumbed-down so much that I don't know what to say anymore other than "revert the prune".
please dont forget that we are on season6 and theres still a season7 to come. all the complaints are valid except that you cant have s6=s7 gear therefore s6<s7=mythic antorus.
There is absolutely no reason why this season's gear shouldn't be equal to next season's gear. It's the same tier for pve. All pvp seasons within that tier should be the same ilevel.