PvP gearing is bad and not fun (HELP)

01/09/2018 02:15 PMPosted by Omegal
Of course, when they fix it so PVP gear is competitive again, there will be a 21 page thread from pvers who feel forced to pvp for gear.

This has been a no win situation for years, and it has literally gone back and forth for years. Either pvp gear is good and pvers are unhappy, or pvp gear is bad and pvpers are unhappy.

They'll probably do something like make gear irrelevant in world pvp with scaling to try and bandaid it


Its almost like there's PVP templates

......That lack balance and basic customization features
01/09/2018 01:48 PMPosted by Ythisens
Thanks guys for all the feedback here as I've been tracking this thread for quite a while. With Battle for Azeroth we aren't ready to share information on what changes may be coming past what has been shared at BlizzCon.

PVP is something that has been actively discussed going forward into the new expansion, no idea on if any changes are going to be made but keep in mind we still have a whole Alpha and Beta cycle to go through so please keep the discussion up.

I think some of us were hoping hotfixes would be quickly rolled out to address the ilevel disparity between PvE and PvP gear during the current PvP season.
01/09/2018 01:48 PMPosted by Ythisens
Thanks guys for all the feedback here as I've been tracking this thread for quite a while. With Battle for Azeroth we aren't ready to share information on what changes may be coming past what has been shared at BlizzCon.

PVP is something that has been actively discussed going forward into the new expansion, no idea on if any changes are going to be made but keep in mind we still have a whole Alpha and Beta cycle to go through so please keep the discussion up.

I think some of us were hoping hotfixes would be quickly rolled out to address the ilevel disparity between PvE and PvP gear during the current PvP season, not the next expansion.


Even if every PvP player had ilvl 980 Versa/Random Stats gear (or exclusive Double Value Versa gear, so it's less useful in PvE for more classes), the core of the issues would still remain and, as a result, few people would participate.

I Know this because in previous seasons in this very expansion, PvPers usually had the highest ilvl around, and participation was still low, and specifically lower than bloody WoD, where overall subs were at it's worst point in history.

I don't remember the official WoW page Gladiator count for last season of Legion, but by going by

http://www.wow-stats.com/ach02.html

Gladiator Achieves for the entirity of Legion, 0.48% of observed active accounts (1M300k, by the site) is 6240 Legion Gladiator Achievments. This is EU+NA.

http://www.arenamate.net/arena-rbg-title-cutoffs/archive/warlords-s3

For only ONE Season, WoD had it's lowest Gladiator title at rank 1213 NA and 1490 EU, so 2703 total.

So in one season of WoD, you had half the Gladiators of the entire Legion expansion so far(which also reduced season length and threw out significantly more titles), while the active playerbase is significantly higher now than it was then.

Thus, assuming ilvl is the problem is a mistake, and thus, just upping the ilevel of the PvP gear will solve nothing.

People who are speaking about balance and class distribution miss the point.

It's all meaningless if there's no one playing.

I bet more people will do BGs once they provide Wakening essences, for instance. I wonder why.

This is a gear structured RPG with a "get more powerful" carrot-in-the-stick. But that "get more powerful" scenario is meaningless if, for instance, doing Mythic Bosses and Mythic+20 only made me stronger...while doing World Quests.

This is basically what some people are asking for here.

"I Want appropriate ilvl rewards, without changing the root of the issue, which is, regardless of how high my ilvl is, it's a marginal upgrade at best and it will only help me when I'm killing some crap elite that I already kill with a GUNDAM OF THE LIGHT GIGANTIC ROBOT and barely make my character stronger in the particular area of the game I want to play."

As me and many others already said in this very thread, this is not a good enough incentive to get people into playing.

As for the "there is still alpha and beta", I was there in the beta forums, saying the PvP Would be a barren wasteland as all the bottom/medium PvP "serious" players would drop out and that you need a good part of the WoW playerbase to participate regularly in PvP for it to be enjoyable and active, and it fell on deaf ears.

Templates are only a good thing for the super casual and for the super e-sport enthusiast. You shouldn't be tailoring your game for either of them. Ever.
prune pvp templates
...
I think some of us were hoping hotfixes would be quickly rolled out to address the ilevel disparity between PvE and PvP gear during the current PvP season, not the next expansion.


Even if every PvP player had ilvl 980 Versa/Random Stats gear (or exclusive Double Value Versa gear, so it's less useful in PvE for more classes), the core of the issues would still remain and, as a result, few people would participate.

People who are speaking about balance and class distribution miss the point.

It's all meaningless if there's no one playing.

I bet more people will do BGs once they provide Wakening essences, for instance. I wonder why.

This is a gear structured RPG with a "get more powerful" carrot-in-the-stick. But that "get more powerful" scenario is meaningless if, for instance, doing Mythic Bosses and Mythic+20 only made me stronger...while doing World Quests.

This is basically what some people are asking for here.

"I Want appropriate ilvl rewards, without changing the root of the issue, which is, regardless of how high my ilvl is, it's a marginal upgrade at best and it will only help me when I'm killing some crap elite that I already kill with a GUNDAM OF THE LIGHT GIGANTIC ROBOT and barely make my character stronger in the particular area of the game I want to play."

As me and many others already said in this very thread, this is not a good enough incentive to get people into playing.

As for the "there is still alpha and beta", I was there in the beta forums, saying the PvP Would be a barren wasteland as all the bottom/medium PvP "serious" players would drop out and that you need a good part of the WoW playerbase to participate regularly in PvP for it to be enjoyable and active, and it fell on deaf ears.

Templates are only a good thing for the super casual and for the super e-sport enthusiast. You shouldn't be tailoring your game for either of them. Ever.


I have to agree. The PvP template situation seemed a prime case of fixing what wasn't broke. You PvPed, you got Honor/Conquest and you spent them on gear as you saw fit. Even going in to PvP without a stitch of relevant gear, you could obtain a serviceable honour set within a few hours.

The kicker though is the whole "using templates to put everyone on an even ground" argument was bunk because of two reasons; the introduction of PvP Talents which instantly undid the instant accessibility templates were supposed to provide along with Holinka and friends being borderline comatose throughout the expansion. Despite having "more knobs than ever to adjust" or whatever BS they slung.

All in all, the changes were unnecessary, left PvP a hot bloody mess and instead of trying to resolve the mess, did close to nothing whatsoever and opted for radio silence while everything went to hell. Bonus points for Holinka quietly jumping ship rather than having the spine to try and fix his many blunders. Going by his track record though, maybe cutting him loose was better for all involved.
01/10/2018 04:32 AMPosted by Vandren
...

Even if every PvP player had ilvl 980 Versa/Random Stats gear (or exclusive Double Value Versa gear, so it's less useful in PvE for more classes), the core of the issues would still remain and, as a result, few people would participate.

People who are speaking about balance and class distribution miss the point.

It's all meaningless if there's no one playing.

I bet more people will do BGs once they provide Wakening essences, for instance. I wonder why.

This is a gear structured RPG with a "get more powerful" carrot-in-the-stick. But that "get more powerful" scenario is meaningless if, for instance, doing Mythic Bosses and Mythic+20 only made me stronger...while doing World Quests.

This is basically what some people are asking for here.

"I Want appropriate ilvl rewards, without changing the root of the issue, which is, regardless of how high my ilvl is, it's a marginal upgrade at best and it will only help me when I'm killing some crap elite that I already kill with a GUNDAM OF THE LIGHT GIGANTIC ROBOT and barely make my character stronger in the particular area of the game I want to play."

As me and many others already said in this very thread, this is not a good enough incentive to get people into playing.

As for the "there is still alpha and beta", I was there in the beta forums, saying the PvP Would be a barren wasteland as all the bottom/medium PvP "serious" players would drop out and that you need a good part of the WoW playerbase to participate regularly in PvP for it to be enjoyable and active, and it fell on deaf ears.

Templates are only a good thing for the super casual and for the super e-sport enthusiast. You shouldn't be tailoring your game for either of them. Ever.


I have to agree. The PvP template situation seemed a prime case of fixing what wasn't broke. You PvPed, you got Honor/Conquest and you spent them on gear as you saw fit. Even going in to PvP without a stitch of relevant gear, you could obtain a serviceable honour set within a few hours.

The kicker though is the whole "using templates to put everyone on an even ground" argument was bunk because of two reasons; the introduction of PvP Talents which instantly undid the instant accessibility templates were supposed to provide along with Holinka and friends being borderline comatose throughout the expansion. Despite having "more knobs than ever to adjust" or whatever BS they slung.

All in all, the changes were unnecessary, left PvP a hot bloody mess and instead of trying to resolve the mess, did close to nothing whatsoever and opted for radio silence while everything went to hell. Bonus points for Holinka quietly jumping ship rather than having the spine to try and fix his many blunders. Going by his track record though, maybe cutting him loose was better for all involved.


EXACTLY!

Blizzard introduces PVP templates for easy class balancing, except the game is as unbalanced as ever.

It still takes them a year to nerf WPVP damage (and not nearly enough).

Blizzard your development pipeline sucks. It does not allow you to respond in a timely manner to anything and it makes a total loss out of minor issues.
01/09/2018 02:15 PMPosted by Omegal
Of course, when they fix it so PVP gear is competitive again, there will be a 21 page thread from pvers who feel forced to pvp for gear.

This has been a no win situation for years, and it has literally gone back and forth for years. Either pvp gear is good and pvers are unhappy, or pvp gear is bad and pvpers are unhappy.

They'll probably do something like make gear irrelevant in world pvp with scaling to try and bandaid it


Um I thought how pvp gear worked in WoD was the way it should kind of be no? Ilvl increase in PvP combat.

Imo regardless having pvers feel like they need to pvp is kind of a cop out. Pvpers do not give a crap about anything besides Ilvl currently. Pvers care about stat maxing and all of that. Currently I am prettt sure there are no BIS pvp items for pve. I get your point but honestly the fix seems to be the opposite of what is is now
01/09/2018 01:48 PMPosted by Ythisens
Thanks guys for all the feedback here as I've been tracking this thread for quite a while. With Battle for Azeroth we aren't ready to share information on what changes may be coming past what has been shared at BlizzCon.

PVP is something that has been actively discussed going forward into the new expansion, no idea on if any changes are going to be made but keep in mind we still have a whole Alpha and Beta cycle to go through so please keep the discussion up.


So basically, "We know it's bad but I dunno if we're gonna fix it hahaxd"
The issue is that the developers don't want to admit they have different customers within the same game. They want to path everyone through what THEY think is fun. I have been on since 2005 or 6. I hit my 250,000 HKs on 8/28/12 for Bloodthirsty and easily have over 20,000 bgs played on all my toons.
Without going through all 25 pages of comments, I will add my thoughts.
I mainly PVP because I just got burned out with raid schedules and the formula /mechanics dance steps of every raid and dungeon being the exact same encounter and mechanics. The LFR system is nothing but a rush to blow thru the instance with no discussion or interaction with other players. The other players might as well be NPCs. There is no appreciation of content just what gear do they get. Some people love that. I can que up a raid, wait 30 minutes to get in, rush thru, and feel dirty afterwards.

With PVP every BG is a different encounter. It is totally random on the players, strategy, etc. I love that.

So on gear I feel Blizzard has tried to dumb stuff down with templates and taking customization away from gear. I do like the Honor talent customization. However, It is ridiculous that the PVP gear rewards are so low compared to the PVE side. I finally had to bite the bullet and spend the last 3 days opening up world quests and Argus so I can specifically target relics and better gear that I need. Compare this to the random 870 drop I will get from a BG.

A customer who likes PVP pays the same monthly $15 as the Mythic raider. If Blizzard wanted to charge $5 / month for PVP players since they do NOT put the same resouces into PVP development, I would keep my mouth shut. I am not saying this disparity in treatment rises to the level of #metoo, but it is time to stop the oppression and discrimination of PVP players and give us some equal resources and gear on Par with PVE so that when we fly around in the world we don't get ganked by the LFR or Mythic Raider.
Posted by Ythisens
Thanks guys for all the feedback here as I've been tracking this thread for quite a while. With Battle for Azeroth we aren't ready to share information on what changes may be coming past what has been shared at BlizzCon.

PVP is something that has been actively discussed going forward into the new expansion, no idea on if any changes are going to be made but keep in mind we still have a whole Alpha and Beta cycle to go through so please keep the discussion up.


in another words, they will do what they always do. Put alpha and beta, ignore all feedbacks, launch new xpac and say that they will fix it in the next one.
I keep seeing people post things about versatility "being on every piece". Arena drops are actually 100% random in how they allocate secondaries. That isn't any different than a m+ dungeon chest or your weekly m+ chest. I've received crappy stats on my drops and amazing stats on my drops. They can be a mix/match of literally any of the stats.
01/10/2018 05:09 AMPosted by Leorox
Blizzard introduces PVP templates for easy class balancing, except the game is as unbalanced as ever.


This is objectively false, based on data from arenamate.net. This is one of the most balanced seasons ever.

Templates are annoying because the way they were implemented prevents customization, but they *have* helped class/spec balance.
What makes templates worse and insidious is that it hurts new players more than veteran players.

I know that I can go to a PVP target dummy and compare my damage from a regular dummy. I also know from experience what the template reduces what abilities and spells in PVP compared to PVE.

New PVP players do not know that. Worse, these new PVP players can not look this information up. Pre template era...players could look up gear builds, stats, and know exact values. Legion PVP the values are hidden and only show up on tool tips in instanced PVP or the PVP dummy.

And asking players to re-learn entire specs and classes in PVP because of template system changes everything makes it harder on new PVP players.

Pre template era of PVP, you could understand the limits of your class because they played fairly closely in PVE. And there was an upper gear ilevel cap in instanced PVP. In Legion they removed the upper cap of gear ilevel thus invalidating the entire premise of a template system. As Asmongold said it Blizz tried to appease two different player bases by straddling that fence of progression of gear vs fairness of PVP fights with Legion PVP system. What Legion offers is shorter seasons with no upper gear cap ceiling that can ever be reached because of titanforged gear. But you are told that "gear doesn't matter" when in fact it doesn't matter IF you are close in ilevel to high level geared players. But for a new player that is 880 ilevel up against someone that is 950 ilevel that gap is huge. Because as we all know the principal of war buff isn't just a 7% difference in raw power between those two examples. There are modifiers and multipiliers along with honor talents that create a power gap dispairty that is greater than 7%.

And these numbers are still significant, because Blizz does nerf and balance auras and templates with single digit percentages.

And why even have a template system when they have an aura system in the first place? If Templates were so great they would apply it to work in PVE as well. But Blizz only balances classes and specs in PVE via class and spec auras. As a result leaving some degree of player gearing choices.

As for testing goes what is the point of a template system where we can not give feedback or player input? Worse, where is the level of transparency with the entire template system?

Why was the sticky removed showing adjustment to class/spec auras and templates? Why wasn't it updated?

The faster adjustments haven't happened, and the only adjustments for PVP templates coincide with changes that happen with the PVE aura first. The entire selling point of the template system was that changes could happen independently of PVE changes and on a different time table than the PVE patch raid cycle.

I would argue adjustments for PVP in legion are sub standard compared to MOP.
01/10/2018 07:20 AMPosted by Meleelock
01/10/2018 05:09 AMPosted by Leorox
Blizzard introduces PVP templates for easy class balancing, except the game is as unbalanced as ever.


This is objectively false, based on data from arenamate.net. This is one of the most balanced seasons ever.

Templates are annoying because the way they were implemented prevents customization, but they *have* helped class/spec balance.


... and that is categorically false because you are looking at one data point in a specific moment in time, and then interpreting the results as 1v1 rating frequencies (which do not exist) rather than comp frequencies which obscure class imbalance.
01/09/2018 11:14 PMPosted by Courser
Pretending that Arena Forum toxicity is the reason why Blues don't post is bs. General Discussion is legit cancer and it gets 10x as much Blue activity on dumb topics.


There's always gonna be a level of trash talking in any pvp game environment. That's a given. I'm actually pretty impressed with the overall level of maturity that most people have kept in this thread.
Pvp is screwed the rest of Legion lol.
01/09/2018 02:17 PMPosted by Fox
It sadly doesn't really give any indicator of their stance as to why the gear item level is shorted by 15 points this season, nor if they plan to change it, which was the main purpose of this post.


Because there is another season, and not another raid.
Upped the cap on this one since you guys hit it. :)
5 Likes
01/10/2018 09:49 AMPosted by Ythisens
Upped the cap on this one since you guys hit it. :)


You're a hero
Why no like button for blues?