100% agree, Blizzard must know that some pvp players DON'T WANT TO MAKE PVE of ANY kind.
12/22/2017 03:17 PMPosted by KlaivaskarrThat does not change the fact that your game has to be designed with your audience in mind, not to "the PvP gamers", specially in a game with a monthly subscription.
If Blizzard wants more people to PVP they have to expand their audience.
12/22/2017 03:17 PMPosted by KlaivaskarrYes. And? I don't care if it's more or less populars than other games' PvP. No one should care, really; games are different and tailored to specific audiences.
Then don't complain that people aren't playing and/or don't delude yourself by thinking that making it MORE inaccessible is going to help.
Power Progression ultimately pushes gamers away from WoW's PvP, it doesn't rope them in.
12/22/2017 03:17 PMPosted by KlaivaskarrLegion is probably the most grindy WoW has ever been since Vanilla, with Artifact and Legendaries, and is also one of the most popular expansions there is.
PvE needs power progression as a reward because people will otherwise burnout replaying the same content.
PvP isn't the same content. You're virtually always getting new teams, new maps, and new gameplay. It naturally has a higher replay value than running the same dungeon for 2 years.
12/10/2017 04:26 PMPosted by ArcanerinoYou guys forgot one thing. Legendary barely drop from PvP.
Rng is rng, I got two frost leggys from rando bgs.
@op I don't agree with the dispairity in rewards between the two game modes.
That being said the team chose to cater to a group of people that wanted as little outside influence (pve rewards)as possible in pvp which is where pvp is now. Concordance is heavily nerfed and nearly worthless, netherlight crucible means nothing and stat templates (as Dillon points out) seem to do their job in keeping ilvl differences in check.
Can't have your cake and eat it too is the short answer. The team catered to the wrong group of players this expac and the result is exactly what you've written about. Would you rather have gear be more meaningful in pvp, and NLC/Concordance re valued in pvp or keep the system as is now? Because as is there isn't a reason to offer rewards where those rewards aren't meaningful.
Legendary drops are dumb. This skinner box design doesn't belong in any PVP whether you believe in gear progression for PVP or balanced PVP.
I received a legendary from a Broken Isle Treasure, three from Blingtron box daily (LOL) and two from random BG's.
WoW PVP has always had some level of normalization whether it is a blanket damage reduction or resilience budget on gear as there was once a gear UPPER CAP in instanced PVP.
Blizz managed to anger two groups of PVP players.
1. Those that want reasonably balanced world PVP/duels.
2. Players that want progression to matter in instanced PVP.
Blizz said in Legion we are not going to try to balance world PVP but will heavily restrict instanced PVP.
This makes no logical sense.
Players that want fair PVP do both instanced and world PVP. So they give up on world PVP and try instanced PVP. But instanced PVP is over simplified due to template and pruning. So, even the players that want fair and balanced PVP are not happy.
Players that want progression to matter in PVP are not happy with the anything goes in world PVP either. Because you can't do duels if people are dying on openers. You can't have mass world PVP around cities if everyone is one shotting each other.
So, in summary players want some balanced in world PVP but some degree of freedom. This is the same for instanced PVP.
Warlords of Dreanor made the most sense for both world and instanced PVP because of the following.
1. There was a gear upper cap in instanced PVP and players below the cap were brought up.
2. PVP gear scaled in world PVP situations making for meaningful world PVP and duels. PVP gear did not eclipse PVE gear for PVE but PVP gear felt valuable to have for world PVP and instanced PVP.
3. Catchup mechanics in instanced PVP and longer seasons ensured everyone reached the upper cap in a reasonable time. A reasonable time I define to be one month which is the period of one subscription fee.
4. Conquest cap per week actually allowed players to play alts. WoW went from an alt driven expansion to a main driven expansion ala Korean model.
5. There was three sets of PVP gear for players to progress through. Starter gear featured more stamina and versatility. Top end PVP gear had less versatility and stamina but traded it for more secondary stats. Of course top end PVP gear was more desirable because of the secondary stats. That is a driver to motivate people to progress to better gear. But in the meantime a new player had extra stamina and versatility to learn their class. Once they learned how to survive in PVP then they learned how to do damage/healing in PVP as they gained more secondary stats.
Legion removes progression and the need to learn your class. Templates and pruning dumbs it down to the point that no mistake is punished and no success is rewarded.
That sums up Legoin's reward system. A victory is empty and a failure you learn nothing from.
I received a legendary from a Broken Isle Treasure, three from Blingtron box daily (LOL) and two from random BG's.
WoW PVP has always had some level of normalization whether it is a blanket damage reduction or resilience budget on gear as there was once a gear UPPER CAP in instanced PVP.
Blizz managed to anger two groups of PVP players.
1. Those that want reasonably balanced world PVP/duels.
2. Players that want progression to matter in instanced PVP.
Blizz said in Legion we are not going to try to balance world PVP but will heavily restrict instanced PVP.
This makes no logical sense.
Players that want fair PVP do both instanced and world PVP. So they give up on world PVP and try instanced PVP. But instanced PVP is over simplified due to template and pruning. So, even the players that want fair and balanced PVP are not happy.
Players that want progression to matter in PVP are not happy with the anything goes in world PVP either. Because you can't do duels if people are dying on openers. You can't have mass world PVP around cities if everyone is one shotting each other.
So, in summary players want some balanced in world PVP but some degree of freedom. This is the same for instanced PVP.
Warlords of Dreanor made the most sense for both world and instanced PVP because of the following.
1. There was a gear upper cap in instanced PVP and players below the cap were brought up.
2. PVP gear scaled in world PVP situations making for meaningful world PVP and duels. PVP gear did not eclipse PVE gear for PVE but PVP gear felt valuable to have for world PVP and instanced PVP.
3. Catchup mechanics in instanced PVP and longer seasons ensured everyone reached the upper cap in a reasonable time. A reasonable time I define to be one month which is the period of one subscription fee.
4. Conquest cap per week actually allowed players to play alts. WoW went from an alt driven expansion to a main driven expansion ala Korean model.
5. There was three sets of PVP gear for players to progress through. Starter gear featured more stamina and versatility. Top end PVP gear had less versatility and stamina but traded it for more secondary stats. Of course top end PVP gear was more desirable because of the secondary stats. That is a driver to motivate people to progress to better gear. But in the meantime a new player had extra stamina and versatility to learn their class. Once they learned how to survive in PVP then they learned how to do damage/healing in PVP as they gained more secondary stats.
Legion removes progression and the need to learn your class. Templates and pruning dumbs it down to the point that no mistake is punished and no success is rewarded.
That sums up Legoin's reward system. A victory is empty and a failure you learn nothing from.
If Blizzard wants more people to PVP they have to expand their audience.
According to who?
PvP participation was fine when their audience was interested in doing PvP.
Then don't complain that people aren't playing and/or don't delude yourself by thinking that making it MORE inaccessible is going to help.
More people played when it was "more inaccessible".
Incentives are the reason people play, not acessibility.
Power Progression ultimately pushes gamers away from WoW's PvP, it doesn't rope them in.
Again, according to who? Every evidence we have show otherwise. PvP was more active when there was gear, and thus, a starting grind to even participate.
PvE needs power progression as a reward because people will otherwise burnout replaying the same content.
PvP isn't the same content. You're virtually always getting new teams, new maps, and new gameplay. It naturally has a higher replay value than running the same dungeon for 2 years.
Actually, PvP suffers from that exact problem of repetition.
People burn out from the same maps, same arenas, and same classes. That's why even pure PvP games have to shift power, forcibly changing their meta, just so the game stays fresh.
There is an interview with LoL developers saying exactly that - that they make sweeping changes just so the game doesn't get stale.
Again, according to who? Every evidence we have show otherwise. PvP was more active when there was gear, and thus, a starting grind to even participate.
This is because WoW was a different game back then. In all expansions before WoD, PvP was a great way for players who weren't that committed to raiding to get gear.
World quests, LFR, Mythic+1-3 high rolls, etc have all lead to this game being a lot easier to gear in. Back in MoP you could spend an hour a week capping conquest to get an epic that was on-par with high level PvE stuff. This is not longer necessary.
More people played when it was "more inaccessible".
Incentives are the reason people play, not acessibility.
No, both are true. A lot of people who like PvP (in a lot of video games) like the aspect of being able to simply jump in and play. That's why FPS games and MoBAs do so well. Hard to master games, but easy to just jump in. There's no commitment to Overwatch. You can take a 2 month break and come back and be at the same level as everyone else. It's great for casuals.
Blizzard actually asked a lot of people and got this as a response, which is why templates came to be.
Actually, PvP suffers from that exact problem of repetition.
People burn out from the same maps, same arenas, and same classes. That's why even pure PvP games have to shift power, forcibly changing their meta, just so the game stays fresh.
There is an interview with LoL developers saying exactly that - that they make sweeping changes just so the game doesn't get stale.
WoW is a unique game in the sense that it is one of the few MMOs out there that is continuously successful. It is an MMORPG and the way the gear has be "handed out" has ruined a great lot of PvP for those players interested in the gear grind. Why try to RNG a 920 piece from PvP when I can go AFK in LFR and get 930+?
PvP templates are great because they help a lot with balance and lets people jump in and play without feeling like they are to far behind, but Legion did a terrible job of balancing this out. No honor talents make you feel like half a class and no meaningful gearing rewards for outside of PvP makes it feel pointless.
Cont..
PvP participation was fine when their audience was interested in doing PvP.
PvP sucks right now because of this:
Honor Grinding isn't fun.
When you first reach 110, you step into PvP and have 1 talent, a trinket. For 20 BGs or 75 Arenas, you feel like half a class. New players spend 110 level learning to play their class with spells and talents only to be thrown new spells they didn't even knew existed for the last 100+ levels. It was hotfixed I believe in 7.2 to be reduced but it still sucks. That "jump in and play" felt very half assed.
Solution: Hotfix arena and BGs to reward more honor.
The rewards suck.
You essentially get nothing for arena pre 2000 rating, so why would anyone who isn't experienced in arena continue to play? Before, there was incentives like 1800 wep to unlocking gear as you got rating. If someone joins arena for the very first time and gets stuck at 1600 rating in LFG, what is encouraging them to get better? Spending all that time leveling to 110, then getting all your honor talents unlocked does not feel good when you get stuck at 1850 rating for..... what exactly?
Hotfix: You can buy pieces of your elite set from a vendor for Battle Points. (Whatever they're called) Put those elite pieces on a rating system and every 100 rating you receive enough Battle Points to go buy a piece of gear. It's may RNG a crappy piece but at least you will have the elite Xmog
Make the last 2 epic sets available at 1800/1900 rating. Double the amount of people who get gladiator. Make old sets and enchants available during time walking weeks. The goal is to get more people to participate, not horde rewards for the 0.1%.
Gearing is terrible.
Gearing is terrible. There are no useful sets, no trinkets, no pvp legendaries, nothing to make the game more appealing for players outside of arena. I personally love the template system. It's great for balance in the game of WoW, although I wish PvP was a standalone game. But the PvP system lacks any useful items outside of arena. If you aren't getting glad, or love to PvP, simply doing a LFR will net you higher item level, more chances at legendaires, and even set bonuses. These are all more effective in every aspect of wow, from finishing dailies faster to even world pvp.
Hotfix: Make PvP reward any gear you find in a mythic+. No more of this crappy +2400 versatility shoulders. Make elite PvP gear be anything you can get from raids. Now you have a choice of running that Mythic+9 Maw of Souls for the 1000th time, or you can go play some 1900 rating arena.
Blizzard said at Blzzcon they plan to address the gearing in PvP, the rewards, the honor system and even world pvp and duels. That's all great in 8 months when BfA is live, but until then, Blizzard needs to hotfix some stuff to help people in Legion PvP.
12/10/2017 01:08 PMPosted by BelleI could not have said it better myself.
Full disclosure: I am not a high rated arena player, in fact arenas scare me a bit this expansion as I have not arena's since mid WOD and I am not ashamed to admit that. I am mostly an RBG junkie. I am not the on the level of Venruki. But I was an everyday pvper and it was my main game play driving force for many expansions. So my thoughts below are from that stand point.
I have struggled to bring myself to pvp this entire expansion. While I am not a high level pvper, I spent most of MOP and WOD pvping versus doing all the pve content. I have never fancied raiding much beyond at least clearing normal of whatever current tier. This expansion has been almost all pve content for me with a few small attempts to get myself back into pvp here and there.
I miss the conquest/honor grind. I miss the gear vendors. I miss the ability to gain the currency I need to get the gear for PvP that I wanted. I miss the feeling of each week reset at the start of each season. That feeling when you rushed home from work or whatever you needed to do IRL so that you could gather your friends and grind to cap out.
I feel in Blizzard's aim to make it easier for new players to join or make it less "work" for them, they lost sight of the PvP community as a whole. A possible better balance for new/old players & super casual players/daily PvPers would be to have a separate set of basic PvP gear drop RNG as it does now and bring back currency/vendors for more hardcore players. RNG does not belong in PvP as the sole way to gear. Removing currency/vendors took away the uniqueness of PvP. While I do not presume to tell Blizzard how to develop and change their own content, I make humble suggestions.
While I do not know if everyone feels as I do regarding desperately missing the previous expansions currency grinding for gear. I know this just killed my love as a whole for PvP. As of this moment my only joy is watching my favorite pros so I at least get my fix.
I have typically rolled with most changes Blizzard has made over the years because without change the game can not evolve. However, the current state of PvP given the above mentioned changes which no counter balance or equal improvement in the system is something that if I was not a podcaster/content creator for World of Warcraft which requires me to keep myself involved and my guild, I do not know if I would have had it in me to keep playing.
This is not because the other content available like PvE, story progression, Mythic dungeons and all the other great additions this expansion is not worth it to keep playing. I have enjoyed the PvE content immensely this expansion. Nor is this because I am a grumpy Vanilla player who feels a sense of entitlement. But rather, even with all the great PvE content, PvP was a large part of my love overall for this game.
That is just my scrub two cents to the Blizzard powers that be.
I think this resonates with a lot of people who weren't high pvpers, but still enjoyed the pvp content immensely.
The hallowing out of the PvP community can be attributed in large part the the horrible gearing system as describe by Venruki.
In MoP and WoD, most of my gameplay was spent doing random BGs and Yolo arenas due to my schedule. But it was really fun and the gearing system was rewarding enough to help me feel like my character was progressing.
This expansion has been a blowout success for PvE imo with Mythic+ dungeons. And like Venruki, the Mythic+ system got me back into PvE and raiding.
However, as Belle said, there is almost no almost no sense of reward for PvPing now.
Basically what that guy said about not allowing players to be bad.
But it's also a way to control the meta and be able to force people into other classes or faction changes to stretch out the content.
Does your class suck now, well you can't change your stats or your enchants or anything to augment it.
It's all control for money and they ruined the game in the process.
But it's also a way to control the meta and be able to force people into other classes or faction changes to stretch out the content.
Does your class suck now, well you can't change your stats or your enchants or anything to augment it.
It's all control for money and they ruined the game in the process.
Bring back, Honour, conquest, gems, reforging, enchants, gems, useable trinkets and 4 set bonus in pvp.... it was fun fine tuning my diff stats to how i wanted them not to how someone else did it, i have literally spent no gold in legion because i dont need anything it sucks.
bring back talent trees
400 up votes later still no response. Just un sub people they don't care about all of our money
12/26/2017 01:56 PMPosted by KlaivaskarrPvP was more active when there was gear, and thus, a starting grind to even participate.
Only rated pvp. Casual pvp is actually more active this expansion. I'd say rated pvp has declined since there are no cp caps to form a group for. They need to give back more abilities also. For gear, it should go back to rating required for certain pieces, which would boost rated participation.
12/26/2017 11:54 PMPosted by AssasinBring back, Honour, conquest, gems, reforging, enchants, gems, useable trinkets and 4 set bonus in pvp.... it was fun fine tuning my diff stats to how i wanted them not to how someone else did it, i have literally spent no gold in legion because i dont need anything it sucks.
The thing about the reforging I love was like you said fine tuning my gear to my play style. back in the day most fire mage would go all crit but I would reforging most of mine to hast and made it work for me and it was a lot fun. now I pay for someone in an office at blizzard to set my tune up to his play style for me to play.
If there was ever going to be a blue post in the arena forums I thought it would be in this thread. I just cant believe there is still no sign of blue in here.
still nothing???
12/28/2017 02:25 AMPosted by BertragcIf there was ever going to be a blue post in the arena forums I thought it would be in this thread. I just cant believe there is still no sign of blue in here.
If this was About Pve blue post would have been on the first page.
12/10/2017 11:07 AMPosted by Mabusyes, and yes.. I *honestly* miss the old system of grinding honor and conquest to get gear..
You hit it on the nail here,
" As a result, its feel like participation is down more than ever."
Because for example myself, I haven't really tried to PVP at all this expansion since PVE gear was easier to obtain. I miss PVPing with the aspect of being able to get better gear.
This.
I feel like there is an argument for rewarding skill (arena cr) over grindy(time committed) but i think this is backwards thinking for a pay monthly mmo, you want the majority (ideally all) of your playerbase to "have fun" doing what they like in game. The majority enjoy guaranteed no skill required gear as OP mentioned. And this is a big problem with the way PVP rewards are set up now.
People who play most often are the ambassadors of your game. The odds are, that people who play alot/grind will be good at the game, in a positive feed back loop reinforcing their positive experiences with the game as due course from, well, being good. But thats not always the case. I guess what i'm saying is that people who play WoW alot should be rewarded in any avenue they choose to play. Thats the essence of an MMO. The old system nailed it. And failing to do reward the grind with power has a ripple effect which hurts the casuals the most. The people who do not play alot, are not good, and by the current system are not rewarded for PVP in any way.
When you are at where we are now, 870 gear from Random BGS does not feel good. The higher gear is unobtainable. It may not matter, but the pursuit of the gear is usually what gets friendships, where people learn tips and tricks, and generally where the most improvement happens. People see how !@#$ on PVP rewards are (LFR rewards %^-*ing 915 now compared to 870) and just aren't incentivized. Everyone suffers who enjoys PVP.
prestige does not count, because it is purely cosmetic.
12/26/2017 10:05 PMPosted by ZaimAgain, according to who? Every evidence we have show otherwise. PvP was more active when there was gear, and thus, a starting grind to even participate.
This is because WoW was a different game back then. In all expansions before WoD, PvP was a great way for players who weren't that committed to raiding to get gear.
World quests, LFR, Mythic+1-3 high rolls, etc have all lead to this game being a lot easier to gear in. Back in MoP you could spend an hour a week capping conquest to get an epic that was on-par with high level PvE stuff. This is not longer necessary.More people played when it was "more inaccessible".
Incentives are the reason people play, not acessibility.
No, both are true. A lot of people who like PvP (in a lot of video games) like the aspect of being able to simply jump in and play. That's why FPS games and MoBAs do so well. Hard to master games, but easy to just jump in. There's no commitment to Overwatch. You can take a 2 month break and come back and be at the same level as everyone else. It's great for casuals.
Blizzard actually asked a lot of people and got this as a response, which is why templates came to be.Actually, PvP suffers from that exact problem of repetition.
People burn out from the same maps, same arenas, and same classes. That's why even pure PvP games have to shift power, forcibly changing their meta, just so the game stays fresh.
There is an interview with LoL developers saying exactly that - that they make sweeping changes just so the game doesn't get stale.
WoW is a unique game in the sense that it is one of the few MMOs out there that is continuously successful. It is an MMORPG and the way the gear has be "handed out" has ruined a great lot of PvP for those players interested in the gear grind. Why try to RNG a 920 piece from PvP when I can go AFK in LFR and get 930+?
PvP templates are great because they help a lot with balance and lets people jump in and play without feeling like they are to far behind, but Legion did a terrible job of balancing this out. No honor talents make you feel like half a class and no meaningful gearing rewards for outside of PvP makes it feel pointless.
Cont..
When you dont even know what you're talking about with gear ilvl, please, PLEASE don't use it as the crux of your argument. Its 915 LFR.
The rewards suck.
You essentially get nothing for arena pre 2000 rating, so why would anyone who isn't experienced in arena continue to play? Before, there was incentives like 1800 wep to unlocking gear as you got rating. If someone joins arena for the very first time and gets stuck at 1600 rating in LFG, what is encouraging them to get better? Spending all that time leveling to 110, then getting all your honor talents unlocked does not feel good when you get stuck at 1850 rating for..... what exactly?
Hotfix: You can buy pieces of your elite set from a vendor for Battle Points. (Whatever they're called) Put those elite pieces on a rating system and every 100 rating you receive enough Battle Points to go buy a piece of gear. It's may RNG a crappy piece but at least you will have the elite Xmog
Make the last 2 epic sets available at 1800/1900 rating. Double the amount of people who get gladiator. Make old sets and enchants available during time walking weeks. The goal is to get more people to participate, not horde rewards for the 0.1%.
Gearing is terrible.
Gearing is terrible. There are no useful sets, no trinkets, no pvp legendaries, nothing to make the game more appealing for players outside of arena. I personally love the template system. It's great for balance in the game of WoW, although I wish PvP was a standalone game. But the PvP system lacks any useful items outside of arena. If you aren't getting glad, or love to PvP, simply doing a LFR will net you higher item level, more chances at legendaires, and even set bonuses. These are all more effective in every aspect of wow, from finishing dailies faster to even world pvp.
Hotfix: Make PvP reward any gear you find in a mythic+. No more of this crappy +2400 versatility shoulders. Make elite PvP gear be anything you can get from raids. Now you have a choice of running that Mythic+9 Maw of Souls for the 1000th time, or you can go play some 1900 rating arena.
Blizzard said at Blzzcon they plan to address the gearing in PvP, the rewards, the honor system and even world pvp and duels. That's all great in 8 months when BfA is live, but until then, Blizzard needs to hotfix some stuff to help people in Legion PvP.[/quote]
Why the !@#$ isn't this a thing? Like seriously, why the %^-* does blizzard actively crush the pvp playerbase by exsanguinating all lifeblood from the pvp casual base, ie the cannon fodder ? You can't lead the sheep to the slaughterhouse (pvp arena) unless there is marginal incentive in the first place to go into the arena. At current, there is none. Let them buy the !@#$ing gear for even xmog (open the arena to xmogggers) that will bring fresh blood into the otherwise exhausted base.
You essentially get nothing for arena pre 2000 rating, so why would anyone who isn't experienced in arena continue to play? Before, there was incentives like 1800 wep to unlocking gear as you got rating. If someone joins arena for the very first time and gets stuck at 1600 rating in LFG, what is encouraging them to get better? Spending all that time leveling to 110, then getting all your honor talents unlocked does not feel good when you get stuck at 1850 rating for..... what exactly?
Hotfix: You can buy pieces of your elite set from a vendor for Battle Points. (Whatever they're called) Put those elite pieces on a rating system and every 100 rating you receive enough Battle Points to go buy a piece of gear. It's may RNG a crappy piece but at least you will have the elite Xmog
Make the last 2 epic sets available at 1800/1900 rating. Double the amount of people who get gladiator. Make old sets and enchants available during time walking weeks. The goal is to get more people to participate, not horde rewards for the 0.1%.
Gearing is terrible.
Gearing is terrible. There are no useful sets, no trinkets, no pvp legendaries, nothing to make the game more appealing for players outside of arena. I personally love the template system. It's great for balance in the game of WoW, although I wish PvP was a standalone game. But the PvP system lacks any useful items outside of arena. If you aren't getting glad, or love to PvP, simply doing a LFR will net you higher item level, more chances at legendaires, and even set bonuses. These are all more effective in every aspect of wow, from finishing dailies faster to even world pvp.
Hotfix: Make PvP reward any gear you find in a mythic+. No more of this crappy +2400 versatility shoulders. Make elite PvP gear be anything you can get from raids. Now you have a choice of running that Mythic+9 Maw of Souls for the 1000th time, or you can go play some 1900 rating arena.
Blizzard said at Blzzcon they plan to address the gearing in PvP, the rewards, the honor system and even world pvp and duels. That's all great in 8 months when BfA is live, but until then, Blizzard needs to hotfix some stuff to help people in Legion PvP.[/quote]
Why the !@#$ isn't this a thing? Like seriously, why the %^-* does blizzard actively crush the pvp playerbase by exsanguinating all lifeblood from the pvp casual base, ie the cannon fodder ? You can't lead the sheep to the slaughterhouse (pvp arena) unless there is marginal incentive in the first place to go into the arena. At current, there is none. Let them buy the !@#$ing gear for even xmog (open the arena to xmogggers) that will bring fresh blood into the otherwise exhausted base.