[PVE][Raid] Dragon Riding boss

Community WoW Community Council
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I know this is very early, but here goes:

I think dragon riding is very fun for races (the best non-raid content of the expansion easily), but should stay out of any and all “active combat content”. I thought that about Nokhud Offensive’s dragon riding between areas, and I think it’ll be even worse during the raid boss.

There’s obviously accessibility concerns that I’ll let other people who know them better bring up, as it’s not something I can really speak on. (see this other CC thread already: Blind accessability, dragon riding in the new raid)

The main issue I see with the idea of a boss fight using it is that it’s a vehicle phase wearing a fake moustache and sunglasses

Those just straight up aren’t fun. When I enter a raid and fight a boss, I’m there to do so playing my character and spec. Reducing that down to 6(?) buttons, most of which likely won’t actually get used, even for an intermission, is not what I signed up for.

I assume this is meant as a throwback to Alysrazor in Firelands (and to some extent Blackwater Behemoth in Eternal Palace), or maybe Malygos/The Oculus (which would be odd considering how generally unpopular those were).

The big difference between a dragon riding phase and Alysrazor is that in the latter case, I’m actively playing my character the entire time. I’m doing my rotation, using defensive cooldowns etc. I feel like I’m a Shadow Priest (or Balance Druid at the time), I’m not playing the same thing as the other 19 people.
My character got powered up by doing fairly simple flying that was essentially adding the Z axis as an extra movement option. It felt cool because it was additive to the things I would usually be doing, rather than replacing them.

Blackwater Behemoth was essentially the same as Alysrazor except without the powering up and instead with a tedious “swim between platforms” intermission. The swimming/Z axis was additive to regular play.

So yeah, please don’t make a dragon riding boss. If there has to be dragon riding, do it during the trash.

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As with everything, it depends on how it is implemented.

When Torghast was made, we all knew there was going to be an anima power boss, and tarragrue was as well as it could have been done.

Judging by the small clip we saw of the boss, its going to be done as a chase and orbs to collect which I can only assume provide some stat/damage amp and you get to just blast the boss (with CDs recovered from travel time) upon arrival. So again I’ll reiterate, if it is done well, it can be really good… if its not it can obviously suck, but I’m willing to wait to see how its implemented before I make an opinion.

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I don’t think that’s true for everything at all. Any phase where I’m not playing my spec is worse for it. Whether that’s dancing on Council of Blood, vehicles (Malygos, Mekkatorque, dragon riding), pressing W (Jaina), dodging Rive (Sylvanas) or being stunned (also Sylvanas), it doesn’t matter, they’re all immediately worse for not letting me play the spec I chose to play. That’s why Alysrazor is the best way to handle flying.

We also knew that there’d be a dragon riding boss, that doesn’t mean it’s a good idea. Tarragrue was a glorified target dummy as the first boss of the raid, this is pretty deep into the raid, which is a relevant difference.

I’d rather get it out there already, then see what it’s like on PTR and give more feedback at that point. I just have very little hope for it, because it’s not like vehicle phases are a new concept, we had them 15 years ago.

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Yeah I just don’t agree with you here. I get your PoV on it, but intermissions are a big part of raid encounters and have typically been done well (Painsmith being a great example of this).

What’s your source on this? I must have missed it. I did not see where it was mentioned that it was late in the raid - but i will reiterate again - IF IT IS DONE WELL, it can still make an excellent encounter.

Sure that’s all well and good. Flame Leviathan & Malygos were that long ago, but both the development of the game and the overall pattern of boss mechanics have evolved drastically since then.

I just try not to have an absolute doomer take until I’ve seen the thing that I’m upset about.

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The weakest part of the fight by far, especially because you didn’t have to actually clear out the balls.

It was obvious the moment they created Nokhud. They didn’t confirm it, it’d just be very weird if they didn’t.

They were, but other “you don’t play your character” phases (Mekkatorque and all the walking around phases) were more recent and still not good.

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That’s not what I was asking. What I was asking was how you know its late in the raid

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It’s on the Druid of the Flame boss which is end of the Fire wing, no? From the original video. That puts it somewhere around 5th-8th or so probably?

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No, thats Smolderon, “The Firelord Himself”
5:10 timestamp in announcement vid

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Fair enough, misheard that.

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I think most of this entire thread is a very specific viewpoint from a miniscule portion of the player base. While their ability to play the game comfortably should be a concern and have ongoing iterations for longterm play ability across the spectrum.

The choice to remove or prevent future content of vehicle mechanics or new event style encounters because you as a player are content with how you’ve experienced with the game and how it’s played out for you.
Is most assuredly not something to be forced on the rest of the playerbase. This game and any game needs to evolve. Whether for this generation or the next, iterations must be had at content and context.

You can’t speak to the validity or quality of this encounter. You have no basis for conjecture. I think this conversation could have more merit later in the develepment/ testing phases where we could accurately elaborate on what we’ve seen or experienced.

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Yes. Mine. That’s why I posted it.

It’s not about being “content”. It’s about having seen/played past examples of similar things and thoroughly disliked them (including dragon riding in an “active combat” environment in the form of Nokhud M+), as well as giving an example of a fight that executed the same basic premise well (by not making it a vehicle)

Past roleplay/afk/vehicle phases are a decent basis when they’ve, without exception, been the worst part of their respective fights.

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Looks like I was accidentally right anyway, it’s the penultimate boss, which is definitely not where gimmick experiments should go.

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I have to agree on this, I feel like a dragon riding boss would be fine somewhere at the start of the raid, make an easier fight for “fun” just like gunship and other fights where you need to mount something.

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I think it’s too early to judge this and I personally don’t want to judge the boss before it’s actually playable. But I want to chime in on this thread:

Flame Leviathan is the most fun boss I’ve played so far in Classic (honestly one of the more fun raid bosses overall). The amount of communication needed to do it on 10-man HM makes it enjoyable, as it’s communication between everyone and not just someone calling things. While the fight probably hasn’t aged very well in todays standards, if something similar were to show up in a modern raid but with modern “mechanics”, I’d be all in for seeing how it can play out.

I for one liked Nokhud and flying between bosses. I get that not everyone shares this sentiment though.

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This should be the very reason you as a player would want more attempts at vehicle encounters or new events mechanics. Improve on the quality of previous, what worked and what didn’t. Eventually it’ll pan out in a way you’ll be happy with it. Which won’t happen unless those iterations are.

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Again, vehicles actively detract from what I’m there to do (playing my character). No amount of iteration changes that, and the penultimate boss certainly is not a place to do experimentation like that. If they want to do flying that’s great, make our characters fly like they did 12 years ago on Alysrazor.

They don’t need to “try and iterate on” a pet battle raid boss. It’s just a bad idea and doesn’t need to be attempted.

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You have the entirety of the game in all forms of questing, flying, raiding, etc to be your character. One encounter in a new zone should not be a consideration for argument to remove that content.

Why repeat an encounter that already been in the game. We need new content. Whether it fails or succeeds, we should never be doing the same script on repeat. It’s bad gaming.

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This argument goes both way though.

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Can you explain how?

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You have the entirety of the game in all forms of questing, flying, raiding, etc to be in a vehicle.