I don’t think you understand that this is FULLY understood by Logosdruid, Ralph, Argorwahl, myself and other players that support the restrictions.
The punishing nature of these power differences is EXACTLY where value is derived from.
If you want to raid and pvp, then make 2 characters to do so. We want the game restricted to one class, one spec, one type of content. If you want to deviate from that mindset, then you get punished.
No that’s dumb. I’m not a World First Raider who wants to spend time making a ton of alts just to game the system.
Then don’t. Pick one content and stick with it.
If you deviate, then you get punished with timegates or having to maintain multiple characters. This is exactly why we enjoy the system. You don’t just get to swap things around whenever you want in order to play more than just one content and one spec.
Right? God forbid I want to partake in other avenues of the game and have all of the achievements and titles be under one character.
Sorry but this has never been the case ever since the launch of the game. Not sure where you think this comes from.
Do you have several alts for made for each of the different forms of content ?
Does this toon you are on only do one kind of content in WoW ?
Do you have toons for the other forms of content ?
No it won’t. It’s being nerfed into the ground so it should be like 5% of power tops. If that’s useless, then you’re insane.
Or, wait for it, make 3 characters.
It doesn’t matter what Blizzard currently is interested in. They can have Wrath’s numbers or they can keep failing. It’s up to them.
Well let’s go through them then.
Players who want to partake in multiple avenues of the game can make more characters. Not screwed. Just lazy.
Players who play at the top end can make more characters.
Players can experiment. Make an alt and mess with the covenant abilities, pick the one you want to commit to on your main. Not screwed.
Players who want to play multiple roles on their class can, they just won’t be the very best at all of them. If you want to conflate not being 100% optimal with “screwed” that’s a you problem.
It really wouldn’t. They already introduced the PvP trinket mechanic in beta like, what a month ago? And they said they’d keep iterating on it. And it’s something that PvPers seem to want regardless of how this topic shakes out. The ripcord could be pulled and PvPers would still be asking for it, so THAT is the common denominator, not the ripcord.
No they aren’t. There are plenty of turn based RPG’s like Xcom and others which just electronically role dice as if they were tabletops. You have no idea what you’re talking about.
Except I just listed the comparisons and I’ll let you read them again, and again, until you start understanding it.
Yeah they’ve had this planned since before Legion, which is why all the systems they’ve done since Legion have tried to have commitment / friction put on the player indirectly (You can spend AP on X or Y but not both until you get more). What they underestimated was how much players would grind to get everything, and how terrible it was to try and catch alts up. This is why they’ve gone to a weekly lockout / catch up system, to remedy those issues.
This has been in the works, probably, since MOP if I’m putting on my conspiracy cap. They tried to make the talent system simple, saw how people instantly min/maxed and swapped it to not even function as a talent system and have been thinking of schemes to try and pull it back ever since, which they ought to do. This system is a VERY light slap on the wrist compared to what they should have done years ago.
That depends on your overall groups composition.
An aoe talent may seem like the “OBVIOUS” choice - but if your composition already involves enough aoe, some players can make the meaningful choice to go with something more ST oriented.
One common friction that comes up frequently here is performance. You sacrifice dps if you go ST, but that may be what works best for your current team.
I think this works for larger 40 man raids in watered down Vanilla content. But with content tuned so finely at the high end, I don’t think locking people down is good without having to scale back content difficulty. Which ok I guess, but that takes away some of the fun for me personally. I like thinking, strategizing and having to play the best I can with how difficult they make things now.
Restrictions only force people towards a meta, especially during progression. That’s the sad thing about the current setup. The thing they’re trying to battle is the thing they’re actually supporting.
That’s based on YOUR criteria for an RPG. Flexibility is actually found in other MMORPGs.
I mean, technically yes I suppose. But that wasn’t my point. The point is if we’re in a fantasy world with magic, then being able to have your character alter things like spec/talents/essences/covenants isn’t far fetched and isn’t outside the realm of “role-playing”.
Yes, the fine tuning is THE PROBLEM. They need to water it down some. Maybe not Vanilla level, Wrath was the sweet spot, and the subs reflected that. The mass exodus that happened when people hit Cata raiding was no fluke or accident. The majority of people who want to play an MMO don’t like finely tuned action intensive fights. That’s just the numbers.
There will always be a meta. Now there will be a raid meta, an M+ meta, and guilds will have to make due with M+ setups in their raid teams. If Blizz has to go Firelands 2.0 and start nerfing things to the ground to compensate, then they’ll do it.
No, but boiling 100% of your performance down to fine motor skills is something that Street Fighter already does. You’re making them equivalent games.
#pullthebeads
… wait wat L_L?
It comes from where we value the game.
We spammed the devs on the forums, reddit, and twitter to the ends of the earth and we finally got what we wanted.
Now you have to play how we want you to play, or you get punished. It’s not complicated.
It doesn’t matter if this has never been the case. It’s how we want the game played. We asked for it, they responded.
Who cares? None of that matters in relation to how we want the game played.
Even if I played in multiple types on content on a single toon, that doesn’t mean I don’t want to be punished for doing so.
But what’s more important is that everyone else also gets punished for doing so.
That’s what players like Logosdruid, Ralph, Argorwahl, myself and so many others enjoy.
Not taking a Blink + Free Killshot or STRAIGHT UP REMOVING LOS + Removing all debuffs which could easily grant a free Feign Death into Camoflague which is a sudo Vanish for Rated Arena is insane. The other 2 Covenants pale in comparison for pushing rating unless they hit like freight trains. Which is not what I’ve seen on the Beta.
Point to an expansion where I’ve had to make a character for each aspect of the game due to restrictions.
You’re actually insane if you think this game can grow back to Wrath numbers.
Nope. Bad design. They’ve never done something to that degree before. Next.
But never had to in order to partake in other avenues of the game. Next.
Playing on an alt that’s not as geared as your main does not serve as a good experiment to see where the potential lies in each Covenant ability. Next?
Nope. It’s the players desire to be the best they can be and help out their team as much as possible while at the same time minimizing the potential for mistakes.
Sorry but none of those things are answers to the problem. They’re just imaginary solutions that you think players are actually going to entertain in this dream to get Wrath numbers again. You’ll see it happen some time after launch when the “hype” has died down. Players will speak up about this and it’s going to result in the same issues both Legion and BFA had with these borrowed power systems.
Mmmmno. Unrelated issue. PvPers are asking for the old system where PvP gear is best for PvP. While at the same time being accessible to everyone. Even the most casual players could get a full Conquest set with the old system and everyone would be on the same playing field. I highlighted the primary word for you there.
The Covenant issue for a PvP player is again going to come in if they want to jump into a different role but the better abilities lie in a different Covenant. Doesn’t sound accessible in the slightest to me.
What other expansion had this level of restriction that was also celebrated?
oof. Well, if they did so (which could essentially be easily done by removing Mythic raid content and capping M+ to the max gear reward level), then that would actually alleviate a lot of the friction. PvP is still a factor though, and so would be gameplay for players who specifically chose their class so they could play across various specs/roles. But it would do a lot to help the current issues.
It would be a shame though. A lot of my enjoyment is the extreme difficulty.
My point is that the restrictions make it harder for players to break the meta and try new things. Which is where casuals get hit the hardest with the restrictions. Many of them don’t even really care so much about min/maxing. They just enjoy being able to test and try things on their own WITHOUT having to be told what the meta is from some website.
But with the restrictions in place, those casual players are now more influenced to go down the meta path.
Sure, there will always be a meta. But being able to diversify and break away from the meta, I think, is a good thing. Restrictions don’t support and influence that.
I think you’re making a huge leap with making them “equivalent”.
Irrelevant. No other expansion needs to have these kinds of restrictions in order for us to enjoy that they’re finally in the game and punishing players.
So you can’t answer the question. Cause you know what the answer is.
Classic. Some classes were absolutely terrible at all roles except 1. By hypothesis, classic is the mark the devs are aiming at, not a particular expansion, and Wrath may end up being the middle ground.
The current retail + classic numbers are evidence to the contrary. I think the player base will grow as they add more expansions. I know like 3 people who would jump on a Wrath server and stay there with me if it ever gets released, they’re not currently playing retail.
Nope, great design. You’re just wrong.
Only if current raids / gearing remain as they are, at which point it will be the fault of those systems that this system didn’t work.
PvPers are straight up asking not to be forced into doing PvE for PvP gear, that’s the core issue. Obfuscate this however you like, but the semantics are getting old.
That is answering the question. It.doesn’t.matter.
Our enjoyment and preference can come to fruition even if it’s never existed in the game.
That’s like going back to before the internet and arguing why would wireless communications be good when it’s never existed in the past and been celebrated.
False. You can essentially do anything in the game with any class and still clear all the content.
I was referring to SL alone but sure we can put together 2 completely different playerbases.
Based on what? Because we’ve done sub restriction based expansions and that was the primary complaint for both of them. My hypothesis is based on the history of both Legion and BFA while yours is based on Classic. A game that’s designed entirely different from the ground up that supports these systems due to how simplified the entire game is.
And they are. So…they shouldn’t do it? Glad we agree.
Yeah and if they want to jump into raids or push M+ by their own choice then they shouldn’t be restricted to be sub optimal.
Not really an answer. More like side stepping the question.
Nope. My analysis comes from previous expansions.
Legion and BFA had minor restrictions when it came to their borrow power systems and they all have been disliked by the playerbase. And you think suddenly going all in is going to be celebrated? You’re in for a rollercoaster.
Yeah I get that. And it’s unfortunate that both kinds of players can’t coexist. I just think there are like 1 million games over dozens of genres that cater to that, and there was ONE genre that did what WoW used to do.
Yeah and I’m all for some way of letting people try stuff out in the open world, heroic dungeons, etc. It’s the progression stuff that I don’t want people to be pressured to switch and min/max on a dime for. A nice middle ground would be something like:
When you enter an M+ dungeon or a raid, your current set up locks for 8 hours, or whatever the time is.
What that means is that technically the ripcord should be pulled to separate covenant abilities / soulbinds from the physical story covenants (which I’m fine with aesthetically anyway and I’ve said as much). And it’s just the covenant abilities / soulbinds themselves that need to be locked.
So I guess that would put me in the middle position of:
#pulltheripcordbutkeeptheinflexibility
I mean they’re equivalent in the exclusionary way which keeps people from playing past the first couple weeks of an expansion. It’s like, people without super great reflexes, don’t play fighting games. People without super great reflexes, probably aren’t doing too hot in raids/M+. It’s functionally equivalent even if not aethetically equivalent.
I’m gonna hard disagree with that one. There should be some sense of the WoW that people are used to playing in the current WoW. Why Cata blew up and most people left was that the way they were used to playing the game was completely uprooted after Wrath, and they hated it.
“What precedent are you drawing on?” is a completely fair question, if for no other reason that if we’re introducing game systems out of the blue to solve some particular problems, we should have some past evidence that the systems solved the kinds of problems we think they’d solve. That’s just fair.
No duh. Because the content was easy enough that was the case. You seeing it yet? Just because a pally tank was X% worse than a warrior tank didn’t imply pally tanks were “screwed” in the role they wanted to play, did it? So now it’s checkmate at this point. I’ll let you think about the corner you’ve painted yourself into and leave it be.
So you think because you can get away with that in Classic suddenly means that you can have the same mentality and go into Mythic Raiding and have the same result? Are you even playing the same game as me?