No, the question should be why do you need to question players’ desire to min/max? Many players want to be playing at their absolute highest level of performance, and the game should accommodate that.
There is no reason why class abilities need to be tied to Covenants. I’m totally fine with having questing and story progression tied to them, and I have more than enough alts to play through each one at least once. But tying class abilities to a choice that you cannot easily change is just going to cause a lot of grief among the playerbase.
It’s really quite amazing how Blizzard doesn’t seem to learn from their mistakes.
I was surprised to see classic being brought up considering WoWhead was pumping out the “PRE-RAID BIS” lists like no tomorrow the moment classic was announced.
Meaningful choice for me is stepping into a dungeon and thinking to myself - Hmm there’s a lot of trash in here that’s hard, but the 3rd boss is also next to impossible. Do I want the extra trash damage that will ultimately make the run go faster? Or do I want a really powerful single target ability to do my best to make sure we don’t wipe on that 3rd boss?
You know what isn’t meaningful? Stepping into that same dungeon and thinking to myself - doesn’t matter what the layout of this dungeon is or what mechanics it has in it, I’m stuck with this one ability I picked 10 months ago!! Gee I really can’t wait for that experience!
@Timbaeslice - responses like this are more of a veil, hiding behind the “RPG” argument that really doesn’t hold water.
The reason behind the veil ends up being that some players, like Ralph, Argorwal, and myself, enjoy others being punished by having those people have to play the game the way we want.
Many casual/RP players have already confirmed that in a flexible system - their ability to play the game as an RPG wouldn’t be impeded. It’s the “need” to have everyone else impacted that players like Aresia derive their value from. The punitive aspects of being restricted with covenants is where the benefit comes from - whether they admit it or not.
When you see the “RPG” argument (which isn’t very strong of an argument given how vague of a term that is, and how other games can be RPGs and also have more flexibility than WoW does) - you’re looking at the veil.
When a friend was telling me how great “Classic” was - it reminded me of a time when I was so excited to “go back” and try shaving with a straight edge razor. Having to hone it to sharpen it, and strop it for every use seemed pretty cool.
Then I realized why we evolved those tools.
There’s an additional sense of nostalgia when it comes to video games we played when we were younger. That doesn’t mean they were better games.
I played in Vanilla - I never want to go back, but am thankful the game is there for people that value what it offers.
You could also switch back to another legion artifact weapon/spec and pick up where you left off. You didn’t have to start all over to relevel the weapons each time you changed specs.
no, we actually love that idea. we just dont want to have to have for hpally’s at max level to do it. covenant abilities need to be like another talent row.
That’s a stretch. Try, there’s gamers who prefer Diablo 3 as an RPG where you can swap skills at your leisure, and then there are gamers who prefer games like DnD, The Witcher, and Skryim where once you make a choice, you own that choice.
Different strokes for different folks. There’s no need to start personal attacking people.
This isn’t just RP/RPG/Casual vs raiding/minMax. Pretty much everyone wants to bring their best to whatever content they are doing, but within reason. Most don’t consider it reasonable to max out one of each class so they just do their best with their main. If covenant switching is difficult most people are going to just do their best with their main and pick the covenant that on average suits them the best. However, if covenant switching is easy then it is reasonable to switch covenants all the time in order to do your best, which basically makes it required. That’s what will ruin the fun for a lot of people. Switching constantly and negating any credit/cost to your covenant choice honestly sounds 100 times worse than having less single target dps because I wanted the Venthyr teleport instead of the Kyrian stuff.
Also the more you can switch the easier and more dumbed down covenants (or any new feature for that matter) have to be, because they aren’t going to expect players to juggle dozens of covenant options and the menu logistics would be a nightmare.
People are going to define a “good game” differently. There’s people who like Pokemon, Animal Crossing, and Minecraft that I’ll never understand. I think retail WoW is a better game in most ways than Classic. But I think the older MMORPG’s were better games than WoW retail in “some” ways. DAOC had 42 classes and 12 races, I believe. Each class had 3 specs. That was a RVR game with large battles, where balance was designed at the raid level, not really at the class level. People picked the race, class, and spec they wanted. The race, like DnD, altered you minimum and maximum stats, so much more serious of a choice than WoW’s racials. We didn’t have this kind of bickering or elitist attitude. Not to say we didn’t have the hardcore theory crafting the best solo pvp spec etc., but they never lobbied to have the RPG elements of the game removed either.
The two camps opposed on the Covenants aren’t going to come to a mutual agreement. We just want different things. I’m the type who would randomly role my race, class, and talents in Classic WoW and see how good I could do. Same with any RPG. Having disadvantages forces people to get creative, and not be a carbon copy of everyone else. It creates an atmosphere of acceptance, just like back in the early days of MMORPG’s where every class needed other classes just to level up or you’ll die spending 3 minutes soloing a mob equal to you.
People just want different things. Blizzard is finally trying to add the RPG back into MMORPG for WoW and the elitists are trying to ruin it for everyone. You’ll be viable regardless of what ability you choose. We just don’t get why that’s not good enough in a video game where you’re supposed to be having fun; not at work on a project where optimal and efficient matters.
And again you do not need to be optimized to do any of that content. Yes it helps. MMORPGs have choices that impact gameplay. All of that content is doable with any of the covenants. Will some make certain things easier than others? Yes. That does not mean it is poor design. Players who think they should always be able to be optimal for whatever they wish to do are the problem here. Thank goodness Blizzard has a habit of not catering to the 1%. This is not an E-sport. When they have E-sport events such as M+ or PvP players do not use their current characters, they get a fresh character. For those things they would obviously be allowed to pick whichever covenant was best for whatever the E-sport they would be doing.
Oh it’s not a personal attack in any way. After all - we’re not designing the game. We just get to enjoy the punishing nature of the system.
But the “RPG” argument is a “veil” when RPG players have already stated/admitted that they could still play the game in a DnD/Witcher/Skyrim fashion if the game was flexible.
In fact - lots of players already do this with specs/talents/etc. Nothing prevents players from playing that way in a flexible system.
It means it’s garbage design? Say I copied my character to a test realm, and picked a different covenant. How is it good design that that copied character automatically does 10% more healing than my real one??
Meaningful choice is looking at a dungeon and examining which covenant will best help me through this situation.
Picking one ability in September of an expansion and not changing it until 2 years later is not meaningful choice its just - if I picked wrong I’m screwed.
Here, let me DM a game where I let the characters swap between 19 different character sheets where they change anything and everything except their race or name. Then when one of my players complains that this isn’t going to be fun I’ll just say “LOL IF YOU DON’T LIKE IT DON’T DO IT. IT DOESN’T IMPACT YOU”.
Yeah, it makes a difference.
I know you felt like the “veil” metaphor sounded nice, but it just isn’t true. People will be impacted when the game provides an incentive to do something they don’t find fun. Claiming they can ignore it because “veil” is just incredibly obtuse.
Because some aspects of the game are designed at a level where being optimal and efficient matters - and there are players that enjoy these specific forms/challenges of the game.
Also - there’s always the ability for the casual players to still play in a restrictive manner if they choose. There are players that in current retail don’t xmog or use flying mounts because those aren’t things they enjoy - but the don’t want those restrictions forced on everyone else.
The same mentality could be applied with covenant ability swapping. If they could be swapped, those casual players could choose to pick one covenant and stay committed to it in an “RP” fashion - giving them the choice to play the game that way, while also giving the “try-hards” the choice to play the game optimally where possible.
You act like you are not intelligent enough to make a good decision based on what you plan on focusing on. I know you will make the choice you feel is best overall. I agree for only an expansion feature comparing the choice to that of picking your class feels bad. That is in essence what it is currently. I think choices like this for the game as a whole overall are GOOD. Do I want to see it as a simple expansion feature then gone? No. I think players should have more permanent choice selection that impacts gameplay. Choices such as talents SHOULD matter and not be whatever is best at X moment of Y run. Allowing players to change talents was a horrible design and this might be Blizzards way of testing to see how a more permanent choice impacts players.
I’m a part of a guild and 2 communities that already plays in this way.
And it doesn’t make a difference to us that other players can change their talents/specs/etc.
They key is that we don’t focus on what others can/can’t do. We don’t get our value from others being forced to play the game the way we want.
I’m an RP/Casual and I also think the “RPG” argument is more of a facade than anything else because the people I play with are living proof that that kind of argument doesn’t mean anything when we play in direct opposition to it.
It looks like they think you made a bunch of various judgments that didn’t pan out and you disappeared after making them.
They also alluded to “we” when trying to get your comments. It sounds more like they’re saying that the community wasn’t responsive to your outlook and you left. I don’t really get a “I chased you out” vibe here.
Yep I will choose the best one for my preferred content! Dungeons! But sometimes there are aoe dungeons or weeks like bursting and some that are ST like tyrannical. There are many different situations in m+ that is the beauty of it, and being flexible in choice feels amazing in there.
Also, I play with 4 people. We all raid together but we do dungeons first. So we are letting down our raid because now 1/4 of the entire raid will be in dungeon spec. Not to mention the other people in the raid who prefer to do m+.
This is a system that will be absolute garbage, there is no argument for how it won’t be. Whether you like it or not, the game is based around end game content not doing tmog runs.
its just - if I picked wrong I’m screwed.