I’m just telling you what I’ve seen others say on reddit and these forums.
I like the system as is specifically because of how punishing it is for many players. That’s just my opinion though - it doesn’t mean I’m right, or the system is right.
It could be garbage. I am not saying I am sure this will be fantastic. I am excited to see a choice that will matter outside of class or spec. That is all. I might end up agreeing with you that this design is horrible. I am going to stay optimistic and see how it plays out.
They can make simple value changes that do not require such tight min/maxing to balance out these types of choices.
I can’t stay optimistic because I know it won’t be balanced. Even if it is balanced, there will be situations where I really need a certain one to be successful. Just like my talents right now. Kings rest requires me to play a different build than I usually do and that choice feels really good. It also feels good switching stuff up and not just playing the same old thing forever. There’s nothing worse than specs that are locked into a certain talent build or azerite build for the entire expansion it just feels terrible.
You could argue that some azerites provide a meaningful choice - but the truth is it just feels awful to run something in dungeons that is good for raids.
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I guess we’ve been reading different threads over the past several weeks. I haven’t seen anyone wanting more RPG aspects saying they could still play the game the same if everyone could change their abilities at will. In fact, I’ve only seen the opposite. I’ll let those folks defend themselves. It looked like a blanketed attack to them a while ago. I could be wrong.
Yeah I’ve seen a multiple posts about it.
And this is what makes the current system so much better for those of us that value how punitive it is - it’s NEEDLESSLY punishing.
The players who value “RP” could still get that value from the game if they wanted from a flexible system - but instead, the current setup just imposes the restrictions on everyone rather than letting players make a choice about the matter.
If they actually gave players choice, myself and others who enjoy seeing others be punished wouldn’t enjoy the system. Because then players would actually have agency over how they play the game, and everyone could choose a path that they enjoy.
Here’s just one - but I’ve seen many others say the same. I can’t argue with their position. The only way a player can’t still play the game in an RP fashion and enjoy it, is if they care about what others can/can’t do, at which point - they essentially need others to have to play the game the way they want.
The point I like the most here is that players who like the RP aspects of the current system don’t actually get anything tangible from it. It’s all subjective and in their head - which they could get (and some currently get in live) with options to change things up.
You can only go in circles so far before you walk away, there are only so many times you can repeat something over and over. I can’t see giving free bumps day after day for weeks on end. hard pass.
There’s already flexibility in the game today, and lots of players don’t use it, stick to one spec and set of talents , and have lots of fun.
Having choices to swap things around, to many players, it’s what gives the game and our characters depth and diversity.
Having just one choice of covenant and then being stuck with it is what would lead to a watered/ dumbed down environment.
No thinking, no choice, no strategizing. Just check a website or your favorite to guild to see whatsv the best for your class/spec/ content combination - then set it and forget it. That’s incredibly dumbed down and boring.
No, history has shown when players can freely switch talents and abilities the expectations from other players is that they do that. Being forced by the community to do that if I want to do some raid progression takes away my choice. History has also shown when players are forced to have weaknesses, people will band together to overcome those weaknesses. I’ve seen it happen in many MMORPGs. Thats what I’m choosing to believe would happen here as well.
The person you quoted is someone from your amp, not ours. Theyre just spinning it in a way where they’re trying to straddle both sides, but favor yours. Its easy to see through their motives.
Thats their loss for not using their brains. I choose to think about my character development and weighing the pros and cons of my choices. I can spend hours doing this. Youre telling me you read guides when creating a character in DnD, Skyrim, and other RPGs? WOW is still a RPG and should force people to have to think about their choices just like any other kind of RPG. Instead, its trying to be like Diablo 3
It is player choice though. We also havent seen the balanced and refined side of covenants yet so it still seems really premature to say “I have to use this one because x”. The reality is that blizzard has always had some means to limit swapping core power progression in one form or another, and players have always disliked it. But it necessary to make decisions actually matter rather than sending this game further down the rabbit hole of meaningless content. We had high cost talent swaps, static gear, high cost azerite swaps etc.
Min/max has only ever been necessary in WoW if you’re on the bleeding edge of the high end content in WoW like the hall of fame guilds. If that is what tickles your fancy then you likely dont care about aesthetics or will simply role a separate toon you can do whatever with. Being amon the high end of any content does and should require maximum time investment.
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They are have already said that they are going forward with the current system and if in the end it doesn’t work then they will look into solutions. So I don’t see anything changing at least until we get it on live and start to see it in action.
I like weighing the pros and cons of my choices too.
Let’s look at an example.
Say we’ve got a dungeon where there’s a ton of trash, and also the 3rd boss of the dungeon is really really difficult. My version of meaningful choice is being able to look at this situation and think: do I take an aoe covenant here and make the overall run go a little faster? Or do I take a ST covenant here and help prevent us from wiping on that really hard 3rd boss? Or, there’s one part of the dungeon that causes us to lose a lot of time, but the venthyr covenant utility could really speed it up. Should I take a dps loss and swap venthyr to make that part faster?
Your version of meaningful choice is entering the dungeon and thinking: it literally does not matter what kind of trash or mechanics or bosses are in here. Niche mechanic? Really hard trash? Maybe a really hard hps check boss? It doesn’t matter, because you’ve locked your covenant in 10 months ago.
Does this really sound like “meaningful choice” to you?
Well said. Itll fall on deaf ears though
How was that well said? The entire second half was objectively false?
This would only be true if everyone didn’t already know that Blizz stinks when it comes to balancing. Why would it be any different now?
Its meaningful because the choice has consequence and forces you to work with other players to cover your weaknesses. You don’t get the best of all worlds, so you have to get creative in those situations. Being forced to get creative is part of the fun. The type of choices you prefer is great in a game like Diablo or a MOBA like LOL.
In a game like WoW you’re always making choices with consequence for your character. You choose a race, but there will always be a better race for doing other content. You choose a class, but there are superior classes to yours in some content. You choose a spec, and accept the limitations of that spec versus other specs. Now we’re picking a covenant, and just like everything else, there are consequences for your choices
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What happens when creativity can’t cover the 20% dps loss that all 3 of our dps take because they all chose the wrong covenant? How does getting creative cover the fact that your dps has taken such a hit that you can no longer complete the key?
For example, in 22s right now all 3 dps are doing above 90k overall. We’re still barely timing the key. What would happen if all of a sudden all 3 only did 75k? We would no longer time the key.
Your never going to convince people like me that a game should be balanced around whats possible in a lvl 22 Key when the max key you need for max rewards is 15, which doesn’t require that kind of precision from players who know the run and their class well.
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