I addressed your examples and even supplied some bonuses of those actions being an example of ‘heroic work is hard work.’ This does not line up with those other examples.
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What you did was excuse the suffering of others in the name of helping a different party. But then you turn around and say it’s inexcusable for the suffering of one to help the many. It was hypocritical.
Point out where I called for the quest’s removal. I never did. I’m saying there needs to be a choice, akin to Sylvanas Loyalist options, to resist this and not be culpable for the act of condemning Alexstrasza. To make the Bronze Dragonflight intervene and finish the job instead of just meekly handing it over. Quest completes the same way mechanically, but you get to choose whether your character would be complicit in this or not.
What happens if Alexstrasza isn’t condemned? Does an entire race die? Does a plague spread unchecked? Or does a paradox form in a timeline that’s already endured paradoxes?
If the Portal doesn’t open, the Orcs as a race die.
If Stratholme isn’t culled, the Scourge plague spreads unchecked.
If Alexstrasza escapes… The Horde doesn’t have dragons to throw at the Alliance?
One of these is not like the others.
You’re kind of skipping over the uncertainty of what could happen if she escaped early (because she does escape in the timeline, just a little later). Already pointed out that a worse fate is highly likely should it come to be and if the response is, “Well, I want to see worse things before I decide to protect this timeline” is not a very heroic mindset to take.
So your character does things on its own without you clicking your mouse or keyboard? Weird, mine just stands there and does an idle pose now and again.
You’re assuming the worst actually happens however. The point is we don’t know. We do know what happens if the Dragonmaw gets their hands on the Dragon Soul. We don’t know what happens if we refuse it.
But Stormwind thrives and Varian’s suffering all his life doesn’t happen.
It wasn’t about Straholme. It was about Arthas getting to Northrend. Stratholme still is gone but Arthas doesn’t return to destroy the entirety of Loarderon.
Deathwing gets one of the Consorts he wants because the other Aspects aren’t there to back her up. That was literally one of his primary plans for helping Rhonin to free her.
They already had it, it was just ‘temporarily misplaced’ by Infinite shenanigans. Knowing what happened turning out alright and knowing the possibility of things being far, far worse means the smart choice is to not mess things up in a way that may or may not delete the red dragonflight from existence and later result in Deathwing succeeding in destroying the planet.
It does things that I wouldn’t. I make it do those things, yes, but I understand that it is not me and these things don’t brook moral self-reflection in real life because they’re fiction.
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You’re right, Humanity suffers keenly when the Orcs arrive. The Orcs however are not entirely themselves, we know this. They are both victims, one of demonic corruption and compulsion, the other of invasion and slaughter.
Arthas doesn’t need to return at that point; Stratholme exports its tainted grain or its survivors escape to other cities carrying the plague, spread it, and suddenly the entire Eastern Kingdoms is as undead as Northrend.
This also assumes the Alliance doesn’t push at this point, given that the Horde does not have dragons to fend off the Gryphon assaults. Even Deathwing had limits.
We know what happened. I wouldn’t call it necessarily ‘turning out alright’.
The best way to handle this, again, is to offer the Loyalist choice; yielding the Soul or not yielding the Soul. Either way results in the same mechanical ending, the Soul finds its way into Dragonmaw hands and the timeline is preserved. Whether you give it up or you’re made to hand it over by external forces would be up to the choice you pick.
And Azeroth had not a single duty to give them somewhere to run around and rebound. Not a single one. To say that it was heroic is allowing the suffering of thousands for their sake.
Arthas becoming the Lich King is the threat. His campaign caused the suffering of Loredaron, set Illidan up to eat Gul’dan’s skull, and sacked Quel’thalas for his Lich’s revival. Thousands suffered from him. Strathome was the tip of the spear and it was lost cause. Arthas’ future campaigns is what we sanctioned.
The Alliance had no reason to push anywhere. That’s why Krasus had Rhonin sent as a scout and rescuer. Without any of those circumstances nor the other Aspects, she’s wide open. Just as he wanted. Rhonin’s and Krasus’ actions put a stop to his plans. The Alliance would have no idea that the Orcs no longer had dragons.
I would say that in the grand scheme of things, surviving to still be a major character today, having a hand in stopping Deathwing from destroying Azeroth, and having been growing as a character would be turning out great.
But gleaning over the lore for even five minutes makes it painfully obvious that if she broke free sooner, things likely wouldn’t have been in her favor even if she did break free of the chains. Because, you know, escaping Grim Batol vs escaping while in transit away from Grim Batol, or having external forces becoming a distraction vs being the sole target of attention. Hypothetically, if she broke free sooner, she would have been killed by the Dragonmaw orcs, or captured shortly after by Deathwing. You know, resolutions that would have been far worse than what happened.
If the hero decides to say, “No, I want to see the ‘worse’ timeline first before I preserve this one” is probably the most selfish thing to do when given the choice of ‘Do bad thing for greater good or do ‘good’ thing for short-term satisfaction.’ And considering how long this has been going on? The ones who’d demand to see the worst outcomes first won’t be able to handle something like that, let alone I don’t think Blizzard would go so far as to including it if this has been the overall reception.
Perhaps not, but denying an entire race a chance for survival for an action that may not have been theirs to have taken is similarly wrong.
Either choice, allowing Medivh to fail or succeed, results in death on a scale beyond consideration. Allowing a path for redemption from demonic corruption is a small glimmer of light from an otherwise lose-lose scenario.
If Arthas dies in Stratholme, the Eastern Kingdoms become overrun with the undead, not just Lordaeron. The Elves find no mercy either as the horde moves north after finishing the southern part. Combined with the Scourge forces in Northrend ensures the High Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, and Humans extinction. Stratholme needed to be destroyed, and no one but Arthas was willing to do the deed. It’s unfortunate that this also is what broke his mind, but being forced to massacre an entire city’s worth of your subjects by hand…
Uther failed Arthas here when his conviction waned.
The Alliance’s spy network would likely have picked up on something being amiss when the Dragonmaw camps were going wild and a powerful Red was flitting about. But again, there are far more variables surrounding ‘Alexstrasza escapes’ than ‘Stratholme infests the EK’ or ‘all of Outland dies’.
And so we sanctioned the suffering of thousands, the sacking of an entire kingdom, for the orcs.
We do not know that. If one of the Rifts is any indication, if Arthas succeeded in Strathome and died or just died in the attempt, they would’ve found another like Uther.
Or the situation could’ve been contained and controlled once the Cult of the Damned gets discovered and rooted out. There’s way too many variables to know what would’ve happened if Arthas never was allowed to reach Northrend.
The Alliance had NO ONE out there. That’s why Rhonin was sent in the first place. Without it no one would know anything. Not Krasus, not the Aspect, and certainly not the Alliance. The only person keeping tabs on Alexstraza was Deathwing.
That’s not even remotely what’s happening.
How did your character cope with stealing the Dragon Soul to begin with and destroying the entire world, wiping out land and millions of souls? How did your character deal with helping Arthas kill people in Stratholme and making sure they all become plagued? How did your character deal with the human body fields in Southshore or the woman who had her brain cut to make her more docile?
Repairing the timeline isn’t “villainous” at all. What happens in that point of time is dark and disturbing, but it shapes the entire future of Azeroth, dragons, Orcs and the factions.
I am a survivor and I think Alex needs good dialogue afterwards and I hope they don’t delete this quest, but I do hope they have an option for a skip who those that aren’t comfortable.
We haven’t?
We are. There are other quests we’ll be doing that address such matters. Including one where we are the ones who specifically kill Kearnan.
As a survivor, I don’t want this to be retconned. That makes me feel like my tragedy is being glossed over, silenced and ignored.
Again, you’re assuming ‘Alexstrasza escapes’ leads invariably to ‘Alextrasza is Deathwing’s consort’. Alextrasza could get caught. She could be found. She could elude them long enough for Alliance spies to figure out ‘hey they don’t have dragons’ and suddenly she’s backing up a superior army that also has air superiority.
All we know is that Infinite paradoxes aren’t good news, but the really sinister part might be that they do genuinely improve things, just not things where we’re involved.
We did, because we saved more lives than otherwise would have happened. We preserved as much life as we could despite doing a despicable act, because the alternative was worse. And this is without considering the Burning Legion’s imminent arrival.
Uther was already opposed to the notion of culling infected citizens and Lordaeron had no answer to the plague other than to kill the infected. Uther’s refusal would have also had trickle-down effects throughout the entire Silver Hand, likely hamstringing any efforts until it was too late and they were overwhelmed. Since the kingdom is far too concerned with matters of survival after the Stratholme Outbreak, they can’t root out cultists, which means more spread, etc etc.
Us supporting Arthas’s culling was 100% the right call. We saved lives, in both the short and long term.
Then Alexstrasza doesn’t stay there, she beelines toward the nearest friendly place she can. She’d know of the Alliance at this point and after an admittedly hair-raising initial encounter would be able to easily sway them to her support. Even if Deathwing pursues her, he’s risking getting caught out away from allies and surrounded by enemies, a situation he’d probably try to avoid at all costs. Once initial contact is made, Alexstrasza is supporting a superior army (it is a known thing that the Alliance was the better army in WC2 versus Doomhammer’s Horde) without aerial capabilities.
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So we agree that supporting the future we know turns out fine is better than the future we don’t. So I don’t understand why Alex is any different.
Deathwing was the only one keeping tabs on Alex so he’d know when she makes an escape. This is the same Deathwing that could fight and nearly kill a full grown drake with a single swipe of one his claws. And this was when he was holding back protecting Rhonin. Deathwing didn’t have allies that aided him in combat (I guess you can count the goblin servants he had), he was a lone wolf. He was that terrifying and powerful. He was still at full power while all the other Aspects were not thanks to said Dragon Soul. Surrounded by enemy dragon? That’s an afternoon workout. Not even all the other Aspects in their remaining powers could beat him. What’s Alex, what’s left of her flight, and an Alliance settlement gonna do to him?
Next by this point entire generations had come to know Red Dragons as enemies due to the war. Her flying to the Alliance with an entire flock of Red Dragons is only asking for a fight. There is no tense initial encounter, there is only battle. The moment they come into view, they can only think that it’s an attack. Could it be peaceful? Yes but that’s a long shot of a variable and others are far more likely.
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Game ain’t for you I guess.
It’s part of the lore
Accept all of it or none of it
Infact it’s the foundations of the game to have that happen.
It shapes the entire set of events leading up to WoW
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