PTR beta feedback; crosspost with PTR forums

Classes Paladin
1

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/ptr-retribution-class-changes-feedback/610120

  1. Deadzone is worse than ever, please consider reducing the CD on Crusader Strike down to ~4-4.5s if not remove it entirely… It hits for less than an auto attack, so it’s not like removing the CD would be overpowered.

  2. Consecration is nice to have back but it’s pretty useless as is… Would recommend making it generate 1 Holy Power, or increasing it’s damage by 2-3x.

  3. Justicar’s Vengeance is still a dead talent, does not do enough damage or healing to be worth casting under any circumstance.

  4. Healing Hands will never be used, at most it gives you 1 more LoH per raidfight, and it doesn’t even work in Arenas and RBGs.

  5. Repentance has been a dead talent only taken in the most niche of scenarios since it was given a cast time in MoP… Please consider increasing it’s cooldown to 30-45s and making it instant cast.

  6. Retribution Aura is completely contrary to Paladin fantasy. We should not be getting rewarded for the death of an ally… As it stands this is, as someone else on the Pally forums put it “a button the Paladin will only press when they’ve lost faith”. We will only ever use it when people are dying, ie: a wipe is in progress, and we know there’s nothing we can do about it. That’s not a very Paladin concept…

  7. Our mobility is still shambles. Easiest way to fix is to reduce the cooldown on Divine Steed to ~30s and make it suppress snares and roots while active. We should not need to use 2 spells to gap close, and 45s is far too long of a cooldown for our only mobility spell.

  8. Word of Glory is too weak, feels very bad to spend 3 Holy Power for that little healing.

  9. Fires of Justice has been a dead talent for years now, consider some kind of buff or just replace it.

  10. Empyrean Power proc chance is too low, rarely if ever procs when you need it to (during AoE).

  11. Divine Purpose proc chance is also too low. I know chain procs were a problem during legion, which is why the nerf happened, but I feel a better solution would be to simply not allow it to proc off itself and increase the proc chance while removing or reducing the damage increase.

  12. We still have 2 PvP talents that function entirely off Greater Blessings, Vengeance Aura, and Hammer of Reckoning… Greater Blessings no longer exist… This, as you can probably surmise, is an issue.

  13. Eye for an Eye is far too niche of a talent. Physical damage is rare in the game these days, especially in PvP, consider making it work on both physical and magic damage at reduced (maybe 20%) effectiveness.

  14. Cavalier does not belong on a row with defensive talents, please give us a talent row purely for mobility.

14b. Selfless healer is a wonderful talent that has been the default pick in all kinds of content for years now, it’s currently on a talent row with 2 dead talents. Consider making Selfless Healer baseline and turning this talent row into a mobility row.

  1. Sanctified Wrath and Crusade both esentially do the same thing… One of them is superfluous.

  2. Seraphim and Inquisition do not both need to exist, they are just different flavors of the same thing… If the optimal way to play ends up being to use both of these talents it’s going to feel extremely lame to need to ramp up 6 holy power before we can start our rotation, even worse if Execution sentence is also the optimal choice, and we’d need to ramp up to 9.

  3. Crusader Aura is nice and all, but we used to have 20% mount speed baseline on ourselves, this feels like a nerf, and in fact is a nerf, because now Divine Steed is slower… Though I’m perfectly fine with that if our mobility gets buffed.

  4. Wake of Ashes being nerfed to 3 Holy Power feels bad with it still being a 45s cooldown, this feels unnecessary. Please consider reducing the cooldown to 30s like it was in Legion.

  5. Shield of Vengeance still has it’s damage component… Not all that long ago Ion called defensive spells with damage components “toxic gameplay” to explain a change to Touch of Karma - if that changed it seems logical that SoV should too. Please consider removing or reducing the damage component and either increasing the absorb amount or reducing it’s cooldown.

That’s all I’ve got. If you got this far thanks for reading my wall of text.

6 Likes
2
  1. Crusader Strike is a weak bland boring filler ability, it should either do ANYTHING or have no CD, even Bloodthirst which is a filler for Fury does SOMETHING
  2. Filler spell, only useful for maybe tagging some mobs, should generate 1HP like the terribad talent version does currently, if only for Ret
  3. Agreed
  4. Agreed, most useless talent which is impressive since it is Ret and it has lots of competition
  5. Instant cast or no CD, either works as both serves a purpose
  6. Terrible change, boring passive nobody liked made into awkward aura nobody likes
  7. Agreed, needs to give freedom’s effect as well for duration if nothing else
  8. Tuning problem, I mean that unironically, I know “tuning will fix it” is a meme for Ret but that’s all this one actually is lol
  9. Replace it with anything, it’s dead Jim
  10. Proc chance too low, proc +damage is way too weak
  11. Should just be a higher proc chance with limited if any damage increase, like 30% chance or something
  12. LOL Kings/Wisdom gone too, why again? But yeah this is just an easy fix to update
  13. Just make it Divine Protection (20% damage reduction) and keep the damage reflect
  14. Agreed, mobility row would be nice

14b. Selfless Healer is a boring/dull talent but it’s the least bad so should be passive or the row made into a movement row, same could be done with the CC row and the blind/repent just made passive/PVP talents so you have a real healing/defensive row

  1. Agreed, I’d leave Crusade and make the other wings one the Essence proc version, it’s not OP without all the mastery/Light’s Decree shenanigans
  2. Seraphim/ES/Inquisition all lame spenders that no sane person will use together, ES should just be rolled into the other two (ie do damage when pressed) and the choice either to get a weaker buff for a longer time like Inq or Seraphim’s big buff for a shorter window on a CD
  3. Agreed, it’s a basic passive turned into an aura made awkward, completely pointless change and basically just a nerf to Steed which is already something that sucks
  4. Agreed, lower CD and only 3HP works fine I guess
  5. Disagree here, I kinda like that SoV does some damage even if it’s fairly trivial, it’s just flavour and what you’re really saying is that you wish Ret had more defensives which is fair but I think a better way to accomplish that is just adding an extra one like a reworked Eye for an Eye
1 Like
3

There can be a talent that reduce the damage component of Shield of Vengeance to reduce its cooldown, be usable on allies.

And make it usable while stunned baseline, cause we need that for pvp. Divine Protection used to not be on gcd and usable while stunned before we get Shield of Vengeance, and being stunned is our greatest weakness. We need that component back.

1 Like
4

These are the ones I feel most strongly about.

4/8 - I really like current WoG with how its a smart heal of sorts, especially being a group benefit. Healing Hands is so disappointing. I’d rather have a talent for WoG than LoH.

7 - They aren’t going to do anything for more mobility. Its just part of ret’s identity with burst/bubble. Reason I mention this isn’t because I wouldn’t welcome anymore mobility, but just that it dominates feedback and maybe Devs miss other feedback because of it.

9 - I don’t understand Fires of Justice either. Why talent to use a weak ability more often? Buff CS or come up with something different for Fires of Justice.

13 - Move Eye for an Eye to be a pvp talent if that’s where people use it.

I don’t really look forward to so many DPS cooldowns/maintenance buffs. Isn’t wings/inq enough? Guess I’m a target audience for DP but don’t know if the proc nerf keeps it competitive.

5

Just thought of something while reading your comment. How about making Justicar’s Vengeance effect Shield of Vengeance in some way. Like for instance when spending holy power it reduces the CD of Shield of Vengeance. Or casting Word of Glory applies a small Shield of Vengeance on the target. Or have it work like Cataclysm Sacred Shield, so that when you fall below 35% health it triggers a free Shield of Vengeance.
Something along the lines of that.

1 Like
6

I think giving it a 20% magic damage reduction effect would be efficient. I mean the ability orginally only did reflect damage against magic attack, so why not again with little bit of magic reduction. A suped up version of Divine Protection. That or replace it with Blessing of Spellwarding.

Also to add they could change Healing Hand to the Prot Talent Hand of the Protector. So that Word of Glory heals for more base on the targets missing health.

7

I like both of these ideas!

The free Shield of Vengeance trigger at 30% max health would be the more healthy one for the game in pvp. Since we’re extremely squishy, it would save us when stunned.

Slap it a 1min internal cooldown like it was before. It would be a really good talent.

1 Like
8

Baseline:

  1. Consecration is cool to have back, but feels extremely underwhelming to press. It would be better if it did one of the following:
  • followed the paladin
  • was place-able on the ground like D&D
  • generated 1 holy power.

  1. Divine Steed feels very clunky and still is unfun to press. Would be great to have a Speed of Light or Blessing glyph for this ability as Kodos are obnoxiously big.

  2. Blade of Wrath feels like it has a sluggish animation. It would really be nice if this was changed or at least another glyph to alter it.

  3. Hand of Hindrance has too long of a cooldown/isn’t applied by our basic rotation like other melee.

  4. BoSac is nice to have back, but I’m concerned it’ll just force Ret to start fights off with BoSac’ing the tank and popping SoV for more damage. It encourages 2 “defensives” to be used for dps gain.

  5. Auras feel underwhelming, would be nice to get graphics for these too. Maybe making Crusader Aura toggle with mount would be nice too.

  6. Crusader Strike feels very underwhelming to press and probably could use a second off of it’s cooldown.

  7. Art of War should proc from Crusader Strike, not auto attacks, so that these abilities feel like they have more complexity and entanglement.

  8. Ret’s AoE group buffs feel extremely underwhelming with how poorly designed Auras are at the moment. Ret offers very little to nothing for Mythic+ groups and raids.

BoSac is not worth Kings/Wisdom or any other small group utility Ret could have received. AMZ, RoP, Darkness, Stampeding Roar, etc… are going to really outshine Paladin’s single target buffs.

Talents:
Level 15 - These all feel fine, they do what they do.

Level 25 -

  • Fires of Justice

Feels like a very underwhelming talent, just does not proc nearly enough and it makes the rotation feel very “janky.” Does not have an “on screen” graphic when it procs too, like Divine Purpose/AoW do.

The rotation is not “smooth” when you take this talent as you could be hitting TV with 2-5 HP. It just does not feel right.

  • Blade of Wrath

This talent is fine, but again, Art of War should proc off Crusader Strike and the proc chance adjusted accordingly.

  • Empyrean Power

This talent is “fine” but the other talents allow for more usage of other abilities since they effect HP. A BoW proc allows me to hit BoJ again, and then choose what I want to use the Holy Power on. (Fire of Justice is similar)

This talent just lets me cast DS and does not do much for ES, Seraphim, WoG, SotR, Inquistion, or even TV. Very out of place talent, it feels like it should be in the Tier 15 row.

Level 30 -

  • Fist of Justice

This talent should make HoJ a 5 second physical stun, akin to Asphyxiate along with keeping it’s cooldown reduction.

Ret needs a physical stun.

  • Repentance

Fine for what it is.

  • Blinding Light

Fine for what it is.

Level 35 -

  • Unbreakable Spirit

This talent feels good with Bubble’s reduced cooldown. Overall this has been a solid talent.

  • Cavalier

Divine Steed should be removed cause mounting in a dungeon is stupid, but this talent should also be made into a better gap opener/closer mechanic.

Paladins should have:

Two charges of Divine Steed baseline with a 45 sec cooldown each. (IE: Sprint)
One unique gap opener/closer talent in place of Cavalier (IE: Feral Charge, Shadowstep, Heroic Leap)

  • Eye for an Eye

This ability just promotes more anti melee, something paladins have a lot of and now that Ret has SotR, it could get even worst. This needs to be made into Blessing of Spellwarding or some other form of anti caster.

Level 40 -

  • Divine Purpose

This ability should be baseline for Ret as it really helps enhance the rotation and make it fun. It gives a little RNG in speeding up the rotation greatly and would be a huge bonus to the class baseline. It could also help fill in more dead spots in the overall rotation.

It just feels so good when you can get a “free” ES or spam some back to back TV/DS.

  • Holy Avenger

This ability does not feel that great with a 3 min cooldown however, anything less could feel like it over burdens our 2 min wings burst when we have HoW at level 58.

I’m really not a huge fan of this ability as it currently is. Just kind of feels like “on demand Divine Purpose” which if Divine Purpose was baseline could feel kind of cool.

Holy Avenger - Your next 3 attacks will proc Divine Purpose?

Also, this ability needs a graphic update, badly.

  • Seraphim

I really enjoy this talent and am excited to get it back. I wish it replaced Inquisition though as this obviously blots the Ret rotation with 30-45 second buff windows.

This would be a lot cooler if it added a Holy Shield allowing the use of SotR while active.

Level 45 -

  • Selfless Healer

This ability is still great, it’s always been a solid talent.

If WoG was changed to Eternal Flame, it could be cool to have this always crit the target effected by Eternal Flame, if they are below 20%.

  • Justicar’s Vengeance

Maybe this would be over powered, but I think this ability would be cool if it simply hit as hard as a TV but instantly casted WoG for 50% too. Hitting a stunned target increased the “WoG heal” to 100%.

Basically spending 5 HP for a TV+WoG

  • Healing Hands

This is obviously very underwhelming as others have said. Simply making this a copy of WoG (AoE Heal) that Ret has now on Live would be better and more beneficial to AoE group play.

Level 50 -

  • Sanctified Wrath

As so many others have said, it feels to similar to Crusade, they need more individuality. The “explode with Holy Power” feels more in line with Empyrean Power than Crusade or Inquisition.

  • Crusade

It’s a solid talent, always has been.

  • Inquisition

Feels to similar to Seraphim but more underwhelming and passive. Simply putting Seraphim in Inquisition’s place and adding a 8% passive haste buff would do just fine for those who enjoy the extra haste.

9

Pls don’t make the rotation even slower.

2 Likes
10

Well, I think CS should have a shorter cooldown, and the percent chance to proc on Art of War could be adjusted as needed.

Also, I think Divine Purpose should be made baseline too.

1 Like
11

Sounds good, makes sense.
What would Empyrean Power proc off? All attacks like live?

12

I feel like Fires of Justice, Blade of Wrath, Divine Purpose and Holy Avenger are all basically the same thing. It doesn’t feel great when you think of how the talent trees can be mixed up.

Same thing with Empyrean Power when compared to Fires of Justice and Blade of Wrath. It really limits what you can use Holy Power on.

If Fires of Justice or BoW proc, I can choose to use a TV, DS, WoG, ES, Seraphim or Inquisition.

It all feels out of place, to me.

Personally, I’d like to see:

Divine Purpose baseline.

Level 25 talents:

Divine Punisher - Passive
Casting two consecutive Judgments on the same enemy will generate 3 Holy Power.

Blade of Wrath - Passive
Art of War resets the cooldown of Blade of Justice 100% more often and increases its damage by 25%.

Fires of Justice - Passive
Reduces the cooldown of Crusader Strike by 15% and grants it a 15% chance to make your next ability consume 1 less Holy Power.

Level 40 talents:

Sanctified Wrath - Passive
While standing in Consecration, each Holy Power spent causes you to explode with holy light for 85 damage to all nearby enemies.

Empyrean Power - Passive
Crusader Strike has a 15% chance to make your next Divine Storm free and Deal 25% additional damage.

Holy Avenger - 3 min cooldown
For the next 12 seconds your chance to proc Divine Purpose is increased by 15% and increases the effect of your Holy Power spenders by 10%.
(or)
Holy Avenger - 3 min cooldown
For the next 20 seconds, the range of your TV is increase by 20 yards and calls down bolt of Holy Energy, striking all nearby enemies for 80 damage. All Undead and Demons struck will be knocked down.

Holy Avenger changed to something “better.” - I’m not 100% sure what, but something that effects AoE damage.

Level 50 talent:

New Talent - Tirion’s Crusade - Passive
Your spells and abilities have a chance to activate Avenging Wrath for 25% of it’s base cooldown and instantly charge to your target dealing 150 Holy Damage.

Crusade - Passive - Replaces Avenging Wrath

Call upon the Light and begin a crusade, increasing your damage done and Haste by 3% for 25 sec. Each Holy Power spent during Crusade increases damage done and Haste by an additional 3%.

Maximum 10 stacks.

Seraphim - 3 Holy Power - 45 second cooldown
The Light bestows you a weapon of righteousness, granting 105 Haste, Critical Strike, Mastery, Versatility and Speed for 15 seconds.

Allows the use of Shield of the Righteous while active and increases haste by 8% at all times.

13

These should be 1min cooldown effects. 3min just feels terrible for something that’s supposed to increase the sustain damage for a short period of time.

Vision of Perfection was fun and all, but the rng essence of it was really bad. Should change it completely to using Wake of Ashes trigger Avenging Wrath for 8sec.

14

Yeah, they could be any number of things, the main point is just to get the talent choices feeling more in-line with one another.

At least that feels like how a lot of other specs operate, like Arms and Feral have clear cut “AoE row.”

Tier 25 for ret should be the “Holy Power Builder” row, which I don’t think Empyrean Power accomplishes.

Divine Purpose feels really good and should be baseline.
Holy Avenger feels really bad and should be changed.

However, Divine Purpose and Holy Avenger feel to powerful for this row too. Also, it would not feel great to have to sacrifice BoW for Divine Purpose, had they been on the same talent tier.

It could just as well be:

Divine Purpose baseline

Level 25 -

Fires of Justice - Blade of Wrath - Holy Avenger (Changed to HP builder)

Level 40 -

Empyrean Power - Sanctified Wrath (Changed to not effect AW) - NEW TALENT

Level 50 -

NEW TALENT - Crusade - Seraphim

Yes, it requires 2 new talents, but it would make the spec’s talents feel like they fit together better, and allow players to choose how they want to accomplish tasks.

How do you want your HP to build? - Level 25
How do you want to do extra AoE? - Level 40
How do you want to greatly increase your power? - Level 50

Edit:

That’s why in the post above, I suggested moving the Divine Punisher (PvP Talent) into row 25. It helps build HP in a unquie way, that lets the paladin choose which HP spender they want to use.

Holy Avenger then changing into more of an AoE ability like warrior’s Cleave, Feral’s Brutal slash, Surv Butchery, DK Frostscythe, etc…