PTR Retribution class changes feedback

  1. Deadzone is worse than ever, please consider reducing the CD on Crusader Strike down to ~4-4.5s if not remove it entirely… It hits for less than an auto attack, so it’s not like removing the CD would be overpowered.

  2. Consecration is nice to have back but it’s pretty useless as is… Would recommend making it generate 1 Holy Power, or increasing it’s damage by 2-3x. I assume this ability is supposed to “shine” on AoE but at it’s current damage value with no Holy Power generation it will likely end up being our lowest priority ability in AoE.

  3. Justicar’s Vengeance is still a dead talent, does not do enough damage or healing to be worth casting under any circumstance.

  4. Healing Hands will never be used, at most it gives you 1 more LoH per raidfight, and it doesn’t even work in Arenas and RBGs.

  5. Repentance has been a dead talent only taken in the most niche of scenarios since it was given a cast time in MoP… Please consider increasing it’s cooldown to 30-45s and making it instant cast.

  6. Retribution Aura is completely contrary to Paladin fantasy. We should not be getting rewarded for the death of an ally… As it stands this is, as someone else on the Pally forums put it “a button the Paladin will only press when they’ve lost faith”. We will only ever use it when people are dying, ie: a wipe is in progress, and we know there’s nothing we can do about it. That’s not a very Paladin concept…

  7. Our mobility is still shambles. Easiest way to fix is to reduce the cooldown on Divine Steed to ~30s and make it suppress snares and roots while active. We should not need to use 2 spells to gap close, and 45s is far too long of a cooldown for our only mobility spell.

  8. Word of Glory is too weak, feels very bad to spend 3 Holy Power for that little healing.

  9. Fires of Justice has been a dead talent for years now, consider some kind of buff or just replace it.

  10. Empyrean Power proc chance is too low, rarely if ever procs when you need it to (during AoE).

  11. Divine Purpose proc chance is also too low. I know chain procs were a problem during legion, which is why the nerf happened, but I feel a better solution would be to simply not allow it to proc off itself and increase the proc chance while removing or reducing the damage increase.

  12. We still have 2 PvP talents that function entirely off Greater Blessings, Vengeance Aura, and Hammer of Reckoning… Greater Blessings no longer exist… This, as you can probably surmise, is an issue.

12b. Speaking of Hammer of Reckoning, I can think of a way this could serve as a replacement for the current Retribution Aura… Remove this as a PvP talent, rewrite Ret Aura as “Whenever someone effected by this aura takes damage, you gain a stack of Reckoning, at X stacks, allows the use of Hammer of Wrath regardless of the target’s health and deals 100% additional damage.”

  1. Eye for an Eye is far too niche of a talent. Physical damage is rare in the game these days, especially in PvP, consider making it work on both physical and magic damage at reduced (maybe 20%) effectiveness.

  2. Cavalier does not belong on a row with defensive talents, please give us a talent row purely for mobility.

14b. Selfless healer is a wonderful talent that has been the default pick in all kinds of content for years now, it’s currently on a talent row with 2 dead talents. Consider making Selfless Healer baseline and turning this talent row into a mobility row.

  1. Sanctified Wrath and Crusade both esentially do the same thing… One of them is superfluous.

  2. Seraphim and Inquisition do not both need to exist, they are just different flavors of the same thing… If the optimal way to play ends up being to use both of these talents it’s going to feel extremely lame to need to ramp up 6 holy power before we can start our rotation, even worse if Execution sentence is also the optimal choice, and we’d need to ramp up to 9.

  3. Crusader Aura is nice and all, but we used to have 20% mount speed baseline on ourselves, this feels like a nerf, and in fact is a nerf, because now Divine Steed is slower… Though I’m perfectly fine with that if our mobility gets buffed.

  4. Wake of Ashes being nerfed to 3 Holy Power feels bad with it still being a 45s cooldown, this feels unnecessary. Please consider reducing the cooldown to 30s like it was in Legion.

  5. Shield of Vengeance still has it’s damage component… Not all that long ago Ion called defensive spells with damage components “toxic gameplay” to explain a change to Touch of Karma - if that changed it seems logical that SoV should too. Please consider removing or reducing the damage component and either increasing the absorb amount or reducing it’s cooldown.

That’s all I’ve got. If you got this far thanks for reading my wall of text.

31 Likes

Guess you mean Justicar’s Vengeance?:thinking:

Don’t you dare take chain proccing away from me. Nothing more satisfying than three or four DP procs in a row. Reduce the damage bonus if need be but leave chain proccing alone.

+1 to all your other suggestions.

6 Likes

I feel like certain things are hard to talk about like scaling early on. I have no clue how PTR is functioning when it comes to how damage is scaling for certain classes. For 1 mastery increases damage and of course if you don’t have good gear that also reflects upon your damage for certain things. Saying stuff like consecration being useless for example. I mean it’s meant for aoe and if you dont have good gear its gonna show of course.

Some of these issue are huge such as abilities being dependent on greater blessings which no longer exist. If we go live with that kind of thing in an obviously unfinished state you might as well give up on ret for another entire expansion.

5 Likes

So my thoughts. Retribution Aura as it stands is just bad. Rename it Sacrificed Souls and it would fit warlocks and death knights a lot better. It was loathed in Legion as a passive, loathed in BfA as a passive, and as an active ability…please take this back to the drawing board. This is not a fun choice between choosing to save a friend, or let them die to up our damage.

Justicar’s Vengeance remains a trap talent. The cost in no way matches the reward. If it were a guaranteed heal regardless of damage done, and then did additional healing based off of damage done it would be a lot better.

Repentance feels too niche. Against Fist of Justice, a reduced cd stun, almost always will win. Keep the cast time baseline, and make the talented version instant cast with an increased cd.

Healing Hands is dead for anyone who participates in rated pvp as Lay on Hands cannot be used their. I would prefer that the AoE version of WoG were a talent option in its place.

Shield of Vengeance is not respected as a defensive. I know their are issues with people abusing it for dps gain, but that is the nature of the game. The damage being spread to everything in range is part of the problem. Perhaps have it deal its damage to the lowest health target within x yards and have it scale damage based off of the duration remaining.

Shield of the Righteous requires weapon swapping. You cannot change gear in Mythic + so that is one of our defensives we can’t even use.

Retribution was utterly gutted in an expansion about uprunning, we were pruned hard. The passive we hated was nerfed and made into a class wide ability. Greater Blessings, the only utility that prot and holy did not bring, was removed. We lost our aoe heal. Many passive effects were removed so they can be ADDED BACK when we level to 60. However the concern remains why bring a ret paladin when you can bring holy or protection and they can do it better and fill a more important role?

Finally our spec, and class, fantasy feels all over the place. There is no solid theme, but bits and pieces haphazardly cobbled together. Retribution needs attention, and I’m not talking about numbers. I’m talking about mechanics. What are we supposed to be? Crusaders, inquisitors, or avenging angels?

If we’re supposed to be immobile, then reinforce that through gameplay. Make it so that consecration does increased damage if we’re cc’d. Give us back divine hammer and have it do the same.

8 Likes

Well that’s what happens when I post a feedback wall of text at midnight I guess >.> I’ll go fix that.

I’m basing this purely on it’s damage relative to other things in my kit. It does around half the damage of Crusader Strike, which is already hilariously weak, spread over 12 seconds… That’s just… Sad. It needs to hit harder or generate HP or it’s going to be our lowest priority spell even in AoE, where it’s presumably supposed to be good.

Paladins are known for group utility, except Ret may have the least of all the melee dps.

7 Likes

This iteration of paladin died with the end of WoD, perhaps even with the end of MoP.

4 Likes

3 hopo for inq, 3 hopo for seraphim, 3 hopo for exe, Wake of Ashes nerfed to 3 hopo… Hmm, something seems to be off here, way off.

The spec is w/o a doubt unfinished, guess we’ll have to wait for a week or 2.

3 Likes

Hopefully we don’t get the BfA treatment of Shamans and Priests because Blizzard ran out of time.

6 Likes

This is exactly what I’m worried about.

2 Likes

Exactly what’s going to happen…

3 Likes

That’s why you shouldn’t preorder, if they don’t have time to finish my character I won’t have time to purchase SL.

I may find time to buy a ps5 instead : 3.

4 Likes

you’re not slower than a warlock.

Warlock has:

  • Burning Rush with no CD (and even a mini freedom)
  • Gateway which adds to the groups mobility
  • Can talent into Demonic Circle

Paladin has horse:

  • Barely a shorter CD than Venthyr Teleport
  • Want Slow reduction? 1 more GCD
  • Want the retail 20% mount speed passive? Now 1 more GCD (and a bonus GCD back to Devo Aura)

Not sure if you were talking rotation or mobility, but our mobility is so bad that even our cupholders require a GCD.

8 Likes

While being more mobile is nice, I think we’re looking at it the wrong way. If warriors zip around the battlefield, we should be the concrete wall that they crash into at 90mph.

I really think that we would shine as an area denial spec. Ranged can pick us apart, that’s what rogues and warriors are for, but melee we should shred. Going into Shadowlands I think this quote holds true for the theme… “The Light will tear you apart.”

If they were to design with that in mind, I don’t think we’d need that much in the way of mobility.

1 Like

Thinking they care about PTR feedback. Anything you’re posting here has probably been brought up on the Beta. Most classes aren’t going to see big changes anymore, just minor tweaks while they try to work on the (broken) covenant system. They are desperately trying to balance something that’s going to be impossible to balance so they don’t have to walk back “mEaNiNgFuL cHoIcEs” of being locked into a spec/playstyle based on the covenant you choose.

We’ve been through this for nearly 5 years now, Dremall, low mobility melee does not work, and trying to make it work is a waste of time.

3 Likes

Yes ptr feedback matters, and very longtime veterans of the spec viewpoints who weren’t privy to a beta invite would be valuable i would think.

So you’re saying the specs that have received attention are the ones that matter going into sl?

If they are “desperate”, then they need to DELAY.

Survival is another spec that hasn’t even had a passing glance yet. You’d think they would have learned thier lesson with shaman and priest rushing into BFA. If they do that again you better believe its going to get loud.

3 Likes

Rets are strong As hell in pvp atm