Progressive itemization study

WoW Classic WoW Classic General Discussion
1

[ Post updated to use https://itemization.info ]

I’ve been interested in what implications progressive itemization has beyond the usual hand waving so I set out to research it. I took all the item & spell databases from patch 1.2 to patch 1.12 and wrote some code to analyze them and generate a unified database of all item revisions throughout the history of vanilla. I then wrote a flexible search frontend for this DB so that I can more closely research it and put it up at https://itemization.info

For those of you who are not eager to sift through these hundreds of items, I’ve picked some notable examples so that you can get an idea of what I was looking for. First, lets start with the classics and most cited pieces - items that were updated in patch 1.10 vs. the authentic phase 1 pre-raid BiS pieces (where applicable):

  • Ban’thok Sash https://itemization.info/item/11662 vs. Star Belt https://itemization.info/item/4329
  • Bloodmail Boots https://itemization.info/item/14616 vs. Battlechaser’s Greaves https://itemization.info/item/12555
  • Savage Gladiator Chain https://itemization.info/item/11726 vs. Cadaverous Armor https://itemization.info/item/14637
  • Brigam Girdle https://itemization.info/item/13142 vs. Omokk’s Girth Restrainer https://itemization.info/item/13959
  • Rosewine Circle https://itemization.info/item/13178 vs. Fordring’s Seal https://itemization.info/item/16058 and Eye of Orgrimmar https://itemization.info/item/12545
  • Cadaverous Leggings https://itemization.info/item/14638
  • Deathbone Legguards https://itemization.info/item/14623

Moving on to blue/epic PvP gear that was updated in patch 1.11 and is going to be available in Phase 2 (equivalent to 1.4/1.5). Specifically, pay attention to the updated blue set 2-piece bonus which is BiS until AQ40 for many classes:

  • Warrior Blue Plate Chest (Rank 8) https://itemization.info/item/16513 vs. https://itemization.info/item/22872
  • Rogue Blue Leather Chest (Rank 8) https://itemization.info/item/16505 vs. https://itemization.info/item/22879
  • Warrior Blue Plate Helm (Rank 10) https://itemization.info/item/16514 vs. https://itemization.info/item/23244
  • Rogue Blue Leather Shoulders (Rank 10) https://itemization.info/item/16507 vs. https://itemization.info/item/23258
  • Warrior Epic Plate Boots (Rank 12) https://itemization.info/item/16545 vs. https://itemization.info/item/21688 (available in phase 5)
  • Warrior Epic Plate Legs (Rank 12) https://itemization.info/item/16543 vs. https://itemization.info/item/22385 and https://itemization.info/item/22651 (both available in phase 5)
  • Warrior Epic Plate Shoulders (Rank 13) https://itemization.info/item/16544 vs. https://itemization.info/item/21330 (available in phase 5)

And finally, some general examples of items that received radical changes throughout their life:

  • Bonereaver’s Edge https://itemization.info/item/17076
  • Judgement Breastplate https://itemization.info/item/16958
  • Bloodfang Hood https://itemization.info/item/16908
  • Breastplate of Ten Stormshttps://itemization.info/item/16950
  • Helm of Wrath https://itemization.info/item/16963
  • Gauntlets of Might https://itemization.info/item/16863

If I missed something/big important be sure to mention it in the comments; one tends to get lost with so many items to go through. Anyway, I’ll leave you to explore and discover more cool/interesting stuff :slight_smile:

[I posted this on reddit but I’m posting it here as well in case anyone missed it or doesn’t read reddit]

10 Likes
2

I wont lie, that’s a ton of stuff.

So instead I’ll ask this: Is there any way to quantify just how much an item improved over time? Using the first iteration as a baseline zero, is there any formula or calculation that can help decide if an item jumped in power by X points or Y percent?

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I would say its hard to quantify some items because you would likely want to quantify the change for each class that might want to use it. Like with a leather item you might have rogues, druids, shamans, hunters, warriors and paladins all possibly wanting that item.

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I think unless we can find some kind of way to quantify the change, even in a rough manner, we won’t be able to really tell what the overall impact of itemization is.

Granted he might be doing that in his study here, but that’s too much for me to go through right now while I’m at work.

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Hes not quantifying the impact of the changes as much as listing each time an item is changed. For instance if you look at the warlock T2 helm. It was changed 4 times and you might consider the change in patch 1.5 to be a nerf as you primarily being doing shadow damage in a raid. So from patch 1.4 to 1.5 you lost damage output in a raid with that item.

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I think that best way to try and quantify the change would be to pick a class and spec. And then find the pre raid BIS items for that class and spec in which ever patches desired and then try and “sim” the damage output with each set of gear.

7

With some of the combat sims out there, this could be possible, but again we’d have rough answers instead of specific ones. But a rough answer is better than no answer.

This kind of work is far over my head though.

8

I have found a list of BIS items for a warlock in patch 1.1: Felcloth hood, Choker of enlightenment, Felcloth shoulders, Sapphiron drape, Robe of the void, Shadowy bracers, Hands of power, Felheart belt, Skyshround leggings, Omnicast boots, Songstone of Ironforge/Eye of Orgimmar, Maiden’s circle, Briarwood reed, Eye of the beast, Witchblade, Spirit of Aquamentas, Skul’s ghastly touch.

With this gear in patch 1.1 you get 119 spell power, 97 shadow power, 97 intellect (1455 +mana 1.6 crit), 43 stamina (430 +hp), 41 spirit(18.25 mana per 5 out of combat? ), 50 decreased mana cost to spells, 2% crit, 15 fire resist, 11 frost resist, 5 arcane resist 1 hp5 and an on use effect to heal your pet for 300-500 health from the Robe of the void.

If you dont change any gear at all in patch 1.4 your stats will be: 179 spell power, 137 shadow power, 99 intelect(1485 +mana 1.63% crit), 52 stamina (520 +hp), 45 spirit (19.25 mana per 5 out of combat?), 25 decreased mana cost to spells, 2% crit, 15 fire resist, 12 frost resist, 6 arcane resist, 1 health per 5, and the on use pet 300-500 health pet heal.

The difference from 1.1 to 1.4 being +60 spell power, +40 shadow power, +2 intelect, +9 stamina, +4 spirt, -25 decreased mana cost, 1 frost resist, and 1 arcane resist. Now we just need to quantify the difference. First thing first how much dps is 60 spell power to a warlock? :wink:

But this is really only warlocks and its really only from patch 1.1 to 1.4 and it doesnt address the over 600 items added from 1.1 to 1.4, the rest of the nearly 400 items updated in that time, the honor system gear added in 1.4 and its crazy to think this is all before BWL was released in patch 1.6.

I think it should also be noted that to have what would be considered BIS for a warlock in patch 1.4 about a quarter of the items would be replaced with items updated from patch 1.1 and another quarter of the items replaced would be with items added in Dire Maul and from the pvp honor system.

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Maybe the best way to do it is to first pre-define “gear roles” as in “spell power dps”, “healing”, “melee dps”, “tanking” etc into as many roles as are necessary to describe all the gear in the game. Then tally up all the stats on all the different groups of gear from each patch and list them out.

Total spell power: X
Total spell hit: Y
Total spell crit: Z
etc

And then do the same thing for every patch. And then calculate the percentage increase of availability by tier (pre-raid, MC, etc) between each patch to get an idea of how much more accessible a certain stat is by patch.

So patch 1.1 will be our baseline. Everything in this patch is a status amount and will be used to calculate future patches.

Patch 1.4 comes and now there is X% more spell power in the pre-raid game, X% more spell power in Molten Core gear. etc. Repeat for spell power, hit, crit, int, spirit, etc. Every stat for every gearing style.

By the end, we can make the argument that, if we don’t get progressive itemization, then the following stats are roughly X% more available to pre-raid gearing and then we could kind of gauge roughly how much easier enemy encounters are going to be.

It won’t be an exact science, but the community could get a good feel for it if they see that spell hit is 38% more accessible in patch 1.12 than it was in patch 1.3 and that would create a big problem for us as far as raids being a challenge.

10

This is a massive task to undertake because I feel like there has to be an account for item slot, class, stat weight for each class and spec.

I think item slots would need to be accounted for because if alot of spell power items get added/updated in a patch they wont be equally disturbed to each slot. While there will be more availability for spell power you wont really see the increase in power because you obviously cant equip more then 1 head slot item at a time. If you are playing a class that cant equip a item because of armor type or weapon type those items wont give you any power increases too. Further not all stats carry the same weight for each class and spec so it wont be accurate to say “2 spell crit =X” for every caster dps because for instance the majority of a shadow priests damage comes from spells that cant crit.

Before something like this is further undertaken I believe we should hear what the devs are actually thinking about progressive itemization because at this point I dont believe we have heard anything from them on this subject and they might already be planing on doing progressive itemization.

Hopefully they havent been set back by the layoffs, communication with players doesnt get any worse and we more hear soon.

11

Very good points. Anyway it was fun talking about it with you. I bet someone as smart as OP could find a way to quantify it all.

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Thank you all for your in-depth replies. I’ve actually thought about adding some code to my tool and doing something like this myself; comparing say warlock T1 through all the patches it changed and then comparing the stats you get from it, or making a pre-raid BiS list for any class in patch 1.2 and patch 1.12 just to see how ridiculous the differences are. I’m just not sure yet on the best way to display something like that, and for the BiS lists I’d also need some 3rd party source that has that information - I couldn’t really find something reliable.

1 Like
17

We heard from Blizzard this week and they mentioned progressive itemization to some degree about the items that where added toward the end of Vanilla but we didnt hear anything yet about items that got buffed or added in the first half of Vanilla.

I am most wondering about the updated loot tables in MC as the items that got added in patch 1.4 are really good for everyone. I personally would like to see these items added in a phase 2.5 with the honor system. And I feel like there are items available in patch 1.1 that got big buffs by 1.4 that probably shouldnt be available from the start. Maybe these items could get buffed in phase 2 and/or phase 2.5.

The news we got was very good. I look forward to hearing more from Blizzard. Thank you.

1 Like
18

Bump, cause it looks like Blizzard is only going to be using 1.12 stats and having +100 spell power more then you should going in to MC is not good.

3 Likes
19

It’s pretty much set in stone… they have said this multiple times…

We are not getting progressive item stats changes… ALL items in the game are going to be the 1.12 versions.

The only progressive itemization we are going to have is progressive release of the NEW items that were added to the game… especially in patch 1.10

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Post updated to use https://itemization.info

1 Like
23

We dont even have a release date yet, there is still time for the devs to do this right and update stats with the phases as appropriate. This is a huge deal. If the devs over look this it would be a big mistake.

1 Like
24

They are doing it right. We are getting 1.12 WoW. Blizzard launched new realms throughout vanilla, I rerolled an alt on one of them around patch 1.10. We started with 1.10, no progressive anything. Had Blizzard decided to keep some Vanilla servers after the launch of TBC, 1.12 is what we would have got.

Honestly, this isn’t as big a deal as ya’ll are trying to make it out to be. 1.12 talents/threat has far more of an impact on the game than itemization does. Personally this is just a headache I’d rather not deal with. Some of these items completely changed the role they were for.

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It’s not happening… start coping with the reality so it doesn’t hit you too hard.

26

Personally I’m a fan of the idea of progressive itemization. I really don’t think they’ll do it though. It’s just way to much work at this point. They’d have to go through and literally check every single item against its previous patch counterparts. That’s a whole lot of DB tables to read.

1 Like